Live, Laugh, Stuck

Jackie: Hey, this is Jackie aka
Jax and welcome back to a

special episode of Live Laugh
Stuck. Or maybe this is another

podcast, i still haven't decided
. Maybe it's both. Formatting

and decisions are hard. Anyway,
i have a very special guest with

me here today and we're going
to talk about some very special

topics. Sergeant Spank, who the
fuck are you?

Sgt Spank: Well, people most
know me from my bro body pillows

that I put out and won one-two
like Homestuck Contest for, and

I'm known in the fandom as the
Stryder-cessed chipper of all

time. It's pretty much me. My
whole legacy is just trashy fan

art for fun.

Jackie: It's good trashy fan art
. I still want that, bro. Boob

mouse pad.

Sgt Spank: Oh yeah, well, I'll
let you know when it comes back

in stock.

Jackie: Yeah, i Yeah it's just
just love it. But yes, so, as

you might tell from that
introduction, spicy topics here

today, because today we are
going to be talking about kind

of Homestuck, fandom purity
culture and maybe fandom purity

culture in general. But let's
see if we can keep it laser

focused on on Homestuck, because
we both have plenty experience

in that general area, we sure do
That said, if this is an

episode y'all don't want to
listen to, don't listen to it.

Like it's fine, i'm not going to
have my feelings hurt. Uh,

start to spank, you're not going
to have your feelings hurt?

Sgt Spank: Not at all.

Jackie: It's. You know people.
People say that they come here

for a good chill time and this
is a good fun time. Chill might

not be it.

Sgt Spank: No, probably not
chill Most part. I mean we're

going to get into some heavy
topics, i think, but still fun,

no less Yeah.

Jackie: I think. Yeah, um, but
yeah, definitely not everyone's

cup of tea. So just go on and
skip this one, and I might

instead of doing every other
week I might put this, i might

have one coming up next week,
just so you don't have to wait

too long for a classic episode.
Okay, i guess it is kind of a

good idea to start with some
background. So I used to be kind

of in the whole purity culture
mindset. It's really weird

because now we have the terms
anti and pro ship or anti, anti

or there's like a billion other
fucking names for it, but anti

usually tends to say about the
same Yeah. And I never ascribed

any of those words to myself. I
was just told that certain

things were bad and I felt
guilty about liking those things

and it was just more proof that
I'm a bad person and I just

internalized a lot of that. I
never really harassed anyone

about it. The only thing I did
once was someone posted porn in

the not to say for work channel
of a hive swap, a friend, some

character who was potentially
underage, and I said some shit

against that. But that's the
most I did And this is not to

like. I don't know. I'm not
saying I was actually one of the

good ones, because it still
sucked. It was just more bad for

me than for anyone else. If
that makes sense Absolutely.

Sgt Spank: And the whole anti
movement is kind of centered

around shaming people and to
believing that these kinks or

the things that they consume in
a fictional context is supposed

to be pure. And if you don't
follow those rules then you are

dirty, disgusting, Like that's
their whole thing. So their

whole memo is to guilt you if
you do not consume nothing but

coffee shop AUs throughout your
entire time and certain fandoms.

So yeah, of course you were
made to feel like guilty.

Absolute garbage. Yeah, I mean
absolute garbage. It's a cult.

Jackie: So yeah, and I had my
you're. are you familiar? you're

familiar with Orna High School
host club? right, absolutely.

Sgt Spank: So you know it's what
got me into incest ships?

Jackie: Yeah, absolutely. Yes,
of course It got all of us, like

90s kids, into incest ships,
absolutely. But you know, at the

beginning, as in the episode,
they're slowly figuring out, how

are we as a girl? there's like
the light bulb start coming on.

Yeah, so I had my light bulb
start coming on over the course

of like some months.

Sgt Spank: Okay.

Jackie: Yeah, So the first one
was I was in a friend server

that just if you wanted to know
the dirt on fucking anything in

popular homestuck Twitter, you
went there and I was there, And

so one of the things I got
posted there was the problematic

zine. Was there a different
name? because I'm getting it

confused because there was a
different problem problematic

zine with an eight as the B.
that was about like characters

people considered problematic.
Here's the scene about them. And

then there was the problematic
zine. that was more about like

the character shifts and
interactions and stuff that was

considered problematic and made
a zine about them.

Sgt Spank: Honestly, god, i
could not tell you, because I

haven't been super prevalent in
a bunch of organized like fan

activities until very recently.
Honestly, that's fair. So I have

no idea. You'll have to tell me
all about that.

Jackie: Yeah, well, this was
back in 2019 and the first one

came out and it had ships like
I'm pretty sure it had like rose

dock scratch in there. It had
some more vanilla ones too. Like

it wasn't just all, it was just
like you can do whatever in

here, right, but yeah. But like
this was not a positive space

where it was shared. Everyone
looked at it and everyone made

fun of it and would like, why
would anyone make any of this?

That was my first life out
moment because, like, if you

think it's like terrible, bad,
immoral, the worst, why are you

sharing it and looking at it?

Sgt Spank: It's to pick on it
People, it's. It's. You know,

kids did that shit in high
school. Like they targeted

certain people to shit talking
bully. A lot of that came from

being bullied themselves And so
they decided, you know, well, i

need to target to if I'm going
to be a target, and they kind of

take their frustration to lack
control they have in their life

out on other people, for, you
know, no other reason than to

feel better about themselves,
and it's sad, but, like I get

the logic behind it, their logic
behind it. It doesn't make it

OK though, you know, like it's,
it's free to be nice to people,

just be nice.

Jackie: And I guess a lot of my
things is. This was a lesser

extent of how aunties will share
things they think is literally

illegal, but they'll share it
and they'll post it and

everything And this like well, i
don't think anyone said

anything and there was literally
illegal. It was still like. If

you think this is so immoral to
like consume, why are you?

Sgt Spank: consuming it Right
And spreading it and sharing it

If you think it's so bad that
people are seeing it and

experiencing it and having to
look at it.

Jackie: Yeah, like you went out
of your way to get this and

share it here. And my second
light bulb moment was I have to

be careful because the the at
least one person involved

doesn't want to be like brought
up in anything ever again, which

is fair, absolutely. But like I
was in a group with two friends

, in one, friend had posted, or
like retweeted, a thing about

how, like 16 year old anime
characters are made to be

considered attractive and not
necessarily look 16. That's the

draw. That's why people find
them attractive is because

they're made to look like
attractive adults nine times out

of 10.

Sgt Spank: Yeah.

Jackie: And in that group the
other person blew up, said we're

harboring a pedophile, left the
group and I shamefully cut

contact with the first person. I
have since reconnected and

apologized and we're chill now.

Sgt Spank: That's great. Yes, i
mean, and I understand, because

you probably feel very pressured
. That's scary. You know what I

mean.

Jackie: Yeah, especially not to
narrow this down more, but the,

the, the person who blew up,
carried much more weight in the

fandom. It wasn't a fun time.

Sgt Spank: No, I imagine not.

Jackie: But I had agreed with
that post when I saw it, so that

was kind of like my second
light bulb moment. My final

light bulb moment was someone
saying noncon was bad and anyone

who liked it was a rapist. And
I'm like, oh no, no, no, no. I

read noncon in my grandma's
Harlequin romance collection in

her guest bedroom when I was
like 12. Yeah, i've researched

this. It's fine. You're
literally wrong.

Sgt Spank: Like think about the
stripping beauty series that

Anne Rice wrote Right.

Jackie: Yeah, like noncon is so
normalized in our culture, like

as far as kinks go, yeah, you
don't have to like it, but you

know. Yeah, it's literally fine,
like it's still on the spicier

side of things, but again, my
grandma's collection of romance

novels had it in it, right, yeah
, and so that was my final light

bulb and my final switch over
to the pro ship side of things.

Yeah, and everything went
downhill from there until it

went uphill and everything's
great now.

Sgt Spank: Oh, it's good. I mean
, i completely understand. I

never really hit the anti side.
I never. I never really touched

that personally because I'm 31
years old, you know I grew up in

like old fandom shit, you know
what I mean. Like I'm talking

like when sailormooncom had like
a chat room and an email system

And like when AIM was a thing
like I, yeah, and was it. Winamp

was like a MP3 player or
something, a digital MP3 player.

So I'm old as there And so I
sort of experienced fandom

through friends in high school,
people I had met online and I

had never in my life experienced
people being so like like

basing their moral compass on
what they like in fandom. I

never really experienced that
because to me they were always

just fucking cartoons, they were
always just Barbie dolls to

just do whatever with, and it
didn't affect anybody, it didn't

ruin anyone's day If I like a
certain ship. Like I never

really experienced the anti side
of things until my body pillow

the borough strider one, that a
bro came out and I was

definitely targeted after that
And it certainly had me

questioning for a long time
about whether or not I was a bad

, a bad, terrible person. Like
breakdowns, breakdowns Like yeah

, maybe these people are right,
you know, but I never fully

subscribed to those ideas and I
never will, because there's

absolutely no reason to. It's
very unhealthy to base morality

on what kind of cartoons and
what kind of media you consume,

because just because you enjoy
Hannibal, for example, doesn't

mean that you know you're going
to become a fucking cannibal. It

doesn't work that way. So it
just. To me it's just. It makes

more sense And I'm so sorry that
you have that experience with

your friend. Yeah.

Jackie: And I think the reason
why it happened, because I'm I

just turned 32. I my first
fanfic experience was on your

member, quasilla. I do remember
Quasilla Yeah, i only read

fanfics on Quasilla and I did
not go there for fanfics, i went

there for quizzes. And then
fanfics happened, right, and

every, just about every fanfic I
read if it was longer than a

couple of chapters eventually
had the main character who was

basically a self insert. Mary
Sue experienced noncon. It was

extremely common And there was
like, oh my God, all the band

RPF that I read like I started
out Phantom in a very like what

is now considered a problematic
space, but I never made online

connections. I like would make
one or two friends and then not

keep in touch with them, and I
never made like online fandom

friends. I was very bad at that.
2019 is the first time I really

made online fandom friends.
It's just they happened to be in

this anti mindset and it wasn't
something that even came up for

like months, right, right, and
by then I was just, you know,

very good at guilty myself and
thinking that I was the problem

and stuff.

Sgt Spank: Yeah, i mean they
make it really easy, yeah, to

fill that way. You know what I
mean. I can honestly say the

same about not having really
experienced, you know, like a

group of people that really
engaged with fandom until I got

home stuck I initially got
started in home stuck in about

2011, i want to say, oh, yeah,
so I mean I've been around for

quite a bit in the fandom And
back then Strider Sest was one

of the top 10 ships And so, and
so I mean I think that's why

Strider Sest is keen, that's why
, yeah, and so, like it's it's.

It's very interesting for the
fandom to take such a massive

like nose dive because it like
problematic ships were just

normal lives in the sense that,
like, everybody agreed that it

was just fiction and they just
enjoyed their fiction and went

about their lives like whatever,
because you know it's it's

again, it's cartoons. So it's
very weird how it took a turn

And I think it had to be like
2015 when it started, really,

because I think it started with
a Ralo situation where people

like using their shit, ralo.

Jackie: That is when I started
getting those ideas on Tumblr.

It's so funny because the
Voltron sheath versus Clant

stuff happened And I knew that
that was done because I shipped

sheath Right, i shipped sheath.
How can you not see the sheath

chemistry? What do you mean?
they're brothers. What do you

mean? it's pedophile. You're not
making any sense.

Sgt Spank: They're both adults,
yeah.

Jackie: They're. They're both
adults, they're not brothers.

What are you talking about? And
then the Ralo stuff happened and

I fell for that hard. I had
only watched the first movie,

did not really care, and I fell
for the Ray, the anti-Ralo stuff

. That's when I saw anti DDLG
stuff pop up. I blame everything

on Voltron. I don't know if
that's historically accurate,

but definitely around then is
where I saw like a huge surge in

like cool, we're going after
everything now, absolutely. And

it was framed in such social
justice terms that I started

getting into that mindset and
feeling feeling guilty for the

things I did, like Yeah, and it
really did feel like it was out

of nowhere.

Sgt Spank: And then people
started like to really subscribe

to the idea that you know what
you consume through these shows

is what you like in real life.
You know what you would want

from your own relationship.
People started believing that

artists that had been creating
this content for years, that

they used to be okay with, were
all of a sudden predators. It

really is just sort of a
buzzwords and fear mongering

type situation. I think. Yeah,
and it's also got very high

school click Regina George
plastic he can't sit with us

kind of energy. Yeah, and that's
what it is Like. It's a group

of bullies that you know
indoctrinates people into this

crazy cold where they believe
that queer sex is really dirty

and bad and wrong if it's not
presented in a really super cure

and soft way. But they'll, but
they will absolutely be okay

with violence And, like they,
they don't care if it's violence

, but if it's sex, you know they
have an issue. That's queer sex

.

Jackie: They have an issue. It's
really funny because, like,

people who draw a bunch of gore
are really into gore. It will be

like it's not, like you can
drop jack off to gore And I'm

like, oh, oh, babe, you don't
even know. Yeah, of course you

can. Tons of people do, yeah,
yeah, it's. It's also really

funny to me because, like Game
of Thrones was like alive and

strong at that time. Right, game
of Thrones is when I go back to

often, one of a lot of people
go back to often when it's like

there is a mega popular cultural
sensation that is rife with

incense, incense, incest and
noncon and underage

relationships and just really
heavy themes And these people

don't go after.

Sgt Spank: George R R Martin,
that's his name.

Jackie: Yeah, george R R Martin,
they and they barely go after

the fans. I think they go after
the fans more now because the

current series running is
explicitly about main characters

who are in to incest. Like
incest relationships, yeah, but

like they're not real. Yeah,
They're not real And it's just

like the Lannister brother and
sister. Their relationship was

not portrayed in that negatively
of a light. It was definitely

portrayed as romantic in plenty
of times.

Sgt Spank: Oh yeah, she was like
in love with him. Yeah, like

explicitly Yes, yeah, absolutely
You.

Jackie: That show did not
suddenly make everyone think

incest was okay.

Sgt Spank: No, no, they didn't.
And consuming media with incest

and it doesn't automatically
mean that you believe that

incest is okay and the real
fucking world you know, with

real people. That's not how it
works. It's like it ties into

the like thought crime thing,
where it's like you believe that

you consume this fiction and
you think about this thing.

Therefore, you engage in this
thing in real life and believe

this thing is okay, like people
who have and I think it's really

shitty and honestly kind of
ableist to apply thought crime

to people in fandom, because
people with intrusive thoughts

they, you know experience pretty
awful things when it comes to

intrusive thoughts. It's kind of
taking this idea about thought

crimes and how, like, if you
think about this thing, then

you're going to do this thing,
and completely negates anything

positive to do with people who
are working on their intrusive

thoughts.

Jackie: Yeah, and also like this
is more anecdotal than anything

. I feel like there was one
article around but now I'm not

sure I could find it off like
without a bunch of research. But

people seem to be developing
POCD, which is a pedophilia OCD,

where they are consumed with
the fear that they are secretly

a pedophile.

Sgt Spank: Yep, that's a very
real thing. I've seen people

talking about it on TikTok and
I'm sure there are multiple

articles out there about
people's experiences with that,

and a lot of that has become a
very real thing very recently

because of internet culture and
fandom culture and how people

consume their media and how
people are demonized for

consuming their media in a wrong
way.

Jackie: Yeah, because it's not
just about actual underage ships

. It's like from my hero
academia and hawks, like a ship

between two adults that have an
age gap, because it's like 20s

and 40s or something, and people
call that pedophilia, and it's

wild. This man can have a
mortgage.

Sgt Spank: Yeah right, hawks can
have a fucking mortgage and he

can legally drink. This is a
full grown ass man. So what is

the issue? I'm sorry, this is
how old he said. he said 24.

Jackie: I just said he is in his
20s. I think it's early to mid.

Sgt Spank: He's a 20 year old
minor.

Jackie: Yeah, and it's just a
huge issue because partially

because they're not just coming
for actual underage content,

they're coming for short people.
They're coming for people who

just don't look as adult as they
think people should look, or

people who like more girly girl
stuff. It's absolutely insane.

Sgt Spank: It is. It's also kind
of. I got to say that it's a

little transphobic to believe
that small people are there. I

personally know a very petite,
small trans man that often gets

mistaken as a child and I think
it's really shitty to apply the

idea that small bodies equal
child. Yeah, because he's going

to be fully grown ass fucking
adults with again mortgages,

with those to pay, with jobs and
kids even. It would not matter

to these people because they are
small in air quotes and look

like a child.

Jackie: I want to pivot to
another problem with purity

culture. that isn't just about
the kinks and everything.

Absolutely. It's something that
people don't always ascribe to

purity culture because they just
get caught up in the sex stuff

because that's how they are.
That's one of their big problems

. But also purity in consuming
deals with having the correct

thoughts about the media, having
the correct head canons And of

course, i'm going to turn this
into June discourse.

Sgt Spank: Yes, all right,
absolutely, and I have a lot of

thoughts about this, but
continue.

Jackie: And it's not just June
discourse. June is the most

obvious one where it became very
early on, earlier than when

June became air quotes canonized
by Hussie. Yeah, way earlier

than that Did people start
saying if you personally do not

like June Edward as a head canon
, you are a trans misogynist.

Yeah, i personally knew a trans
man who changed his name. His

name used to be John And then
this happened.

Sgt Spank: And then he changed
his name.

Jackie: Yeah, because he did not
want to be associated with John

anymore. It became very toxic
to many trans mask people.

Sgt Spank: Yeah, absolutely. And
they don't care if it's toxic

to trans mask people, they don't
. They don't care if, like you

personally, like really related
to John as a character, they

don't care.

Jackie: They actively made fun
of people who had can and John

as trans mask.

Sgt Spank: Yeah, and it's the
bully thing.

Jackie: Yeah, And we'll get back
to June in a second. But beyond

June there was also. Briscoe
was another big one because of

the Pester quest route, where
the writer at first after came

out when people asked, said I'm
not holding your hand, You make

up your own mind about what I
can. And I stood there Right.

And then of course, what
pumpkins company line is nothing

is canon, You do what you want.
But that's not the truth,

Because the writer after that,
even after saying that the

writer in the fandom around
Vriska said if you don't think

for us because trans femme like
was made canon in Pester quest,

you're a trans misogynist. If
you don't think for us because

it is a lesbian, you're a. You
know, you're a lesbian. So if

you don't like that. We're
changing canonically bisexual

characters to be lesbians.
You're also a lesbian.

Sgt Spank: I just I feel like
it's very strange to apply, like

human gender identity issues
onto an alien race where they

just are, like they choose their
gender regardless, like their

genitals are all the same And
not not that like genitalia has

anything to fucking do with it,
but they are literally a

completely entirely alien race
where gender constructs and shit

, they do not really apply in
the same fucking way. And to to

apply real life issues and real
life identity crisis crisis onto

fictional characters that are
literally fucking aliens is very

strange to me And it's like
okay, yeah, absolutely, that

first could be trans femme.
That's totally fine, that's

wonderful And, honestly, let let
June be trans femme as well.

That's incredible wonderful. But
you also have to understand

that you have to let other
people have their head cannons

and enjoy their Barbie dolls in
the way that they want to enjoy

their Barbie dolls as well. Like
you all have to play nice and

play fucking fair. And just
because you play with your

Barbie doll as a transmask John,
for example, doesn't mean that

you're suddenly a fucking trans
misogynist. Like trans John and

John in general can exist just
as much as June exists. It's a

multi. It's a multi universe
like comic. It's. That's the.

That's one of the biggest things
in the whole comic is it's a

multi universe, multi
dimensional comic where there

are other selves throughout the
comic. So it just makes no sense

to claim trans, misogyny or
lesbophobia when there are

multiple fucking universes with
these characters.

Jackie: I also want to say, if
you cling to canon so much, one

I see has canonically set has
said that all ships are canon to

us He has said that lesbians,
like sexual human sexuality

doesn't quite exist for trolls.
but can? I is a lesbian in the

sense that she has a, that it's
a fetish like having a

preference for blonde hair Right
.

Sgt Spank: And I'm not to
mention the fact that Karkat

himself in the comic looks at
Dave like he's grown two heads

and he's like OK, so like incest
is an issue for y'all of

whatever, but it's obviously not
an issue with trolls. I mean

they, they procreate with an
incestuous slurry like that's

one of the biggest things in
Homestuck and other canon. Like

moments of incest and in
Homestuck is when Cronus and

Eridan go on a date and Dave
openly hitting on Rose and vice

versa, and and Roxy, like it's
just weird to apply purity

culture ideals to a comic. That
is literally just it's all just

garbage ships where everybody is
having a spark with with

everybody. You know what I mean.

Jackie: Yeah, About the Dave
Rose thing. I have a question

because this has been my
something that I always miss

every time I go through and read
. Homestuck is so in act four,

whenever the, whenever John dies
and the time skip happens and

we see Dave and Rose hanging out
before Dave goes back and

becomes Dave Sprite. Right Even
before the Hussie commentary

everyone said, yeah, I can't
believe Dave Rose happened in.

That. That's so cringe. I never
saw that in the text. Am I

missing something in my read
throughs? or was there some

other cultural context around it
.

Sgt Spank: I don't think so, and
here's here's, here's why.

Here's why I don't think so. I
think that everybody is going to

interpret things differently
when they read through stuff.

They're going to interpret,
interpret the, the comic,

differently and no matter what
you do like, everybody's going

to have an experience with, with
the comic And, honestly, it was

made to sort of be that way for
you to come up with your own

conclusions. And I think that,
personally, i love Dave Rose. I

think Dave Rose is great. I
think there's a lot of chemistry

, i think there's a lot of
possible possibilities for hurt

and comfort within that ship And
I think it's a great ship. And

I think that there is can and
evidence that it was definitely

something that was kind of like
touched up on and given to the

audience like oh, they're very
obviously fucking flirting. I

don't, i, i, i hate to say that
I can't remember exactly which

part of the comic you're talking
about, but I can't, i can't

remember exactly that part. But
if people saw like sexual

tension or romantic, romantic
tension and that and that part

of the comic, then cool, i know,
you know I don't see it as

cringe at all. It's, you know,
it's just a comic.

Jackie: It's just funny because,
like everyone talks about it,

like it's a fact that Dave and
Rose got together in the doomed

timeline that Dave Sprite came
from.

Sgt Spank: I think that there
might be some evidence that you

know leads to that being a very
high possibility. But you know,

it all depends on how you read
it, i think. And if people took

Dave Rose as being canon for
that, then hell yeah, that's the

one for me.

Jackie: Yeah, absolutely. Like I
guess that's just what I don't

get is like y'all don't want
this to happen. Where are you

finding the evidence that I
someone who does want it to

happen can't find right Like I'm
the one who should be reading

into this? Absolutely.

Sgt Spank: They want a reason to
bitch, that's all it is. Yeah,

they are miserable and it is a
topic that they can bring up

that is disconnected with
themselves, so they can bitch

about it without you know having
to within themselves as to why

this is such a big issue.

Jackie: Yeah Well, I'm about to
come up on that in my reread

through with Moosey. Oh good,
I'm recording this So I'll

investigate again.

Sgt Spank: Please do And please
tell me what you find.

Jackie: Yeah, I'll tell the
world what I find If I I gotta

talk to Moosey and make sure
it's okay. We haven't talked

about this stuff specifically.
They're chill. It's just like,

just because someone's chill
doesn't mean they want to talk

about it on the podcast.

Sgt Spank: Absolutely, yeah,
understandable.

Jackie: There are just so many
off topics we could get on to

and I could make the whole
episode about that, even just

focusing on Homestuck as a
fandom. There is canon stuff in

Homestuck that people don't, but
it's like just part of

Homestuck. Like, like you said,
the uh impor assess And in the

fandom Strider assessed is the
core part of the Homestuck

fandom. Absolutely, and, despite
an interpretation of one of my

tweets, strider assessed
shippers are the backbone

because everyone is in a state
of fear right now. It's not as

bad as it was in 2019, but if
you're not on not safer work

fandom, or if you're not like in
cool places, like like people

who are pro ship, or either just
don't give a fuck, right, you

are in a state of fear. Yeah, i
know this. I hear from people

who are in that state of fear. I
hear from people who are like

like uh, i have a friend who is
uh kind of sex repulse, so

they're probably not going to
listen to this episode, um and

so like they don't get into any
of this stuff. They don't get

into these conversations because
the whole thing squicks them

out, not from any moral
standpoint, but just because how

it is, and they still are
afraid for like basic ass things

like shipping Karezi and or or
being blocked for being my

friend.

Sgt Spank: Oh my God. Yeah, i
honestly have a few friends that

uh keep being friends with me,
like on the down now, and yeah,

i completely understand, because
I'm definitely a target for a

lot of harassment. They don't
want to have to deal with any of

that shit.

Jackie: Yeah, Let's, let's,
let's go back around. I didn't

uh, let you extrapolate on your
uh, bro, body pillow experience.

Sgt Spank: Well, um, there was
definitely. Uh, it was well

received within the the the the.

Jackie: So back up and explain
the contest and like what, what

contest Okay.

Sgt Spank: So it was uh, it was
like the homestuck two or three

Just for uh, it was, we love
fine at the time, uh or no, no,

four fans by fans came second,
correct.

Jackie: I'm pretty sure I think
so.

Sgt Spank: It was for we love
fine. Um, they were doing a

homestuck contest as they did
like before, and I always wanted

a first straight or doggie,
like I thought it would be

hilarious. You know that it
would be an incredible joke And

the you know the staff seemed to
agree when I um sent in my

entry. I worked like 24 hours on
that thing and God I wish it

could redraw it. So bad. They
loved it. It was super well

received, right. And then I want
, like I was the staff pick,

they chose me for the contest. I
still have like screenshots of

the like photo op thing they did
with the body pillows, the

aeridine pillow one as well.

Jackie: Oh, my God.

Sgt Spank: It was wonderful.

Jackie: I might need that
picture. I might see if that

picture would make a good
episode picture.

Sgt Spank: I will absolutely
send it to you because I still

have it. But it was. It was
honestly life changing for me at

the time because I'd never like
successfully done anything like

that before, i'd never won a
contest outside of like

elementary school, and my art
was like finally getting out

there to a large audience and it
life changing for me. But with

that came the downward spiral of
people who hated my content

coming after me and coming after
my career. One of the big

homestuck blogs at the time like
had a lot to say about the body

pillow on their on their blog
And it got to a point where,

like, i won another contest, the
next one with an Alphabrow body

pillow. Oh yeah, it wasn't up
there for long, but it was up

there And I you know that also
garnered me a lot of negative

attention And it was for
Alphabrow. Yeah, well, it's

because they knew okay that I
was a Strider Suss shipper that

created a lot of Strider Suss
content And there there was what

really just like broke the
camel's back for these people

that just really hated my guts
for no other reason than the

fact that I was a Strider Suss
shipper and I was being

successful at getting my things
up on Wheel of Fine, was posting

my Dave Sprite and Little Howl
prints on Wheel of Fine to be

sold as a as a mouse pad and a
like a like a poster right, like

a poster print. This person
specifically went on to the

comments of my products on Wheel
of Fine and proceeded to link

my Not Safe for Work art Jesus.

Jackie: Christ.

Sgt Spank: On Wheel of Fine And
like I had multiple people, like

their little lackeys, coming in
and just dogging on my art and

shitting all over it, for for me
, being a Strider Suss shipper

and I don't think I sold more
than 10- of them as a result,

because they actively went into
my shop page to make sure that

everybody knew what kind of
adult like fictional content I

created And they were super
happy about that. I'm sure You

know me, a disabled trans man
not being able to make money any

other way. I'm sure they were
really proud of themselves for

that one And and shit like that
just continued. Like there were,

there were people that were
friends with that person, that

would repost my prints and talk
to their, their followers, about

how ugly my art is and air
quotes. Yeah, i've experienced

insane things from from Antis
and like big name Antis too.

There are a bunch of artists
that created actually a group of

people on Discord to shit talk
me like that was their their

favorite thing to do when I won
the contests. Yeah, i mean, i

don't know about you, but I've,
i've, like I've received death

threats, suey baiting shit and
people wishing death on my cat

over these cartoon characters.

Jackie: And I know I should care
more about like a human death,

but going after your cat is just
a low blow.

Sgt Spank: It's my and my cat
was sick. at the time I had a

like a go fund me or donation
thing going for my cat, emraus,

because he was very, very, very
fucking sick. Yeah And yeah they

. they look at that picture of
my orange bastard son and they

decided you know what, while you
ship incest, so I hope he dies

And that's like look. this
person in particular, i have to

tell you, was a creepypasta fan.

Jackie: Oh my God, Don't you
know that creepypastas led

people to murder someone? So
it's it's.

Sgt Spank: it's beyond me how
these people like can consume

content about, like you know,
slashers and shit like that And

they're fine. It's okay for them
to consume that media or create

that media, but the moment it
becomes sexual, oh, clutch your

pearls. It's the same
puritanical, fucking right wing,

conservative, catholic,
christian Baptist ideology that

being gay and queer sex is bad
and evil wrong.

Jackie: Yeah, laughing at people
dying is okay. Getting off to

people dying is wrong.

Sgt Spank: Yeah, it really is.
Just it's backwards. It's truly

backwards And it's it's
subscribed to the same. It's,

first of all, it's subscribed to
Turf rhetoric 100 fucking

percent. And it also subscribes
to fucking transphobia and queer

phobia in general. Like how
dare queer people have been

policed on experiencing things
in a queer way for fucking ever?

Like we've been demonized for
experiencing queer content for

forever, and unless that queer
content is 100% fucking

wholesome, we're getting the
same shit now, shit that we

should have left behind years
ago. And it's within our own

community as well, where we are
being ostracized from people

near being demonized for
consuming problematic media, and

it's very sad. People are
losing their careers. A girl was

fed a needle.

Jackie: Oh yeah, Do you?

Sgt Spank: remember that.

Jackie: Yeah, i. I don't think I
was around when that happened,

but I've heard. I've heard
stories of it by now.

Sgt Spank: I saw somebody bless,
bless their heart. They were

content creator on on Twitter. I
forget what they worked on, but

they dealt with some hate as
well And somebody told her that

she deserved her cancer. Jesus
Christ, and I think it was over

she, i think it was over her
shipping she. They said that she

deserved her cancer for that.

Jackie: I'm sorry she has so
much chemistry. If you don't,

you don't have to like it, But
if you don't see it, you're

you're a crazy person.

Sgt Spank: Like it's and it's.
I'm not super like big into

Voltron. I did make a passive,
aggressive art piece of trans.

She, both of them. Yeah, just to
piss people off for fun.

Jackie: Yeah, I only watched the
first two or three seasons and

then I just forgot to keep up
with it. Yeah, Yeah, Just like.

Oh yeah, chief, obviously Yeah
absolutely.

Sgt Spank: But yeah, i've, i've.
I don't know about you, but

I've experienced, i have. I
honestly have screenshots of the

two. Just crazy amounts of anti
hate, and it all started with

body pillow. Yeah which fuck it.
I mean I'm making mouse pads

and standies and shit to now
like cry about it. I guess.

Jackie: Yeah, i I've definitely
received hate, but, like, what

gets me the most is when it
comes from people I used to be

friends with. Right, i had and
this is also I want to touch on

posting not safe for work in
places. That is a boundary where

you should not be posting not
safe for work. Yeah, that is an

issue And I had something
similar to that happen where I

got into an argument with one of
my ex friends. If I get deeper

into it, it's going to it's
going to be super obvious what

happened And it's not super
relevant. But the point is I

made them that on Twitter
because of shit I said, because

they made me mad, And we got
into the DMs and they said, hey,

i saw this post you made like,
and it had to been like a year

prior, right, and I didn't like
it And I can't believe you said

this And they shared the post
with me and it was I. I swear.

Also it was on my not safe for
work Twitter and not on my main,

and at the time I was trying to
keep that, that hidden, because

I was did not want to integrate
my not safe for work,

problematic shit into my main
shit. Yet, yeah, and now I just

keep them separate because I
don't want to police minors

finding it from my main. And it
was some rose doc scratch thing

I said. And, ok, they said to me
one. I, for context, i was in

partial hospitalization for a
month after all the drama of

2019, 2020, 2020 happened after
I was harassed and publicly

humiliated and publicly yeah,
that, like all that, it took me

a while to process and I also
had other stressful stuff going

on at the time And it just
culminated Or baited.

Sgt Spank: By the way, i'm going
to say that for the fucking

podcast that I, whatever read
the transcript. That's what we

call baiting.

Jackie: Yeah, i'm not sure I've
like fully talked about that on

the podcast. I'll have to
actually do a episode about that

at some time, because I was
trying to ignore it and

pretended it didn't happen And I
shoved it down so much that it

didn't pop up until fucking like
June, like the summer of 2020.

So, like this person I think was
still friends with me or had

been friends with me and we
weren't like hostile at each

other at this point when I was
in partial hospitalization, and

so they come to me like a year
later, like a year after they

found this one not safe for work
tweet I had and said if you

tell your therapist about it,
she's going to lock you back up.

Wow, to be clear, i wasn't even
in the hospital. It was COVID,

it was partial hospitalization,
which meant for most of a day I

was in zoom calls Gotcha And she
said I hope you don't have any

children ever. I hope you don't
have any siblings. Oh my God,

yeah, and I do have a brother,
by the way. And then they shared

that post. I don't know if they
shared the full content of it

or what, but they deemed one of
our mutual friends about it the

sex repulsed friend I mentioned
earlier to like warn them about

me. Okay, like they broke a
boundary I had with that person

because I know they are sex
repulsed or, the very least, sex

averse And so like we don't
talk about that stuff. I know

they don't like the stuff I'm
into, so we don't talk about it

because that's a normal, healthy
thing. Yeah, it is sexually.

And they broke that boundary on
both of our ends because I

guarantee you they didn't ask
before sharing it.

Sgt Spank: Oh yeah, probably not
. They tend not to.

Jackie: And my friend came to me
and said this is what was told

to me And I said Yeah, like it's
some fictional stuff I'm into

And they're like cool. I trust
you to be a good person. Like

basically right. Like I trust
that you are not like a bad

person IRL I don't personally
get it, it squeaks me out to

hell and back But I trust you.

Sgt Spank: Right, because I mean
it's, it's fictional, like

you're not hurting anybody.

Jackie: You know what I mean And
you know that that person who

had it didn't really care about
it, or else it wouldn't have

taken them an entire year to
bring it out. Unfortunately,

that person is also big in
fandom, especially like fandom

creation spaces. So this is a
reason why I think my bringing

on creators to talk about their
creations is a big deal, because

I don't want, because I feel
like the current spaces for

creators in the fandom are very
you. You have to be either in

certain groups or explicitly not
in certain groups. Yeah, it's

clicky.

Sgt Spank: It's. You have to be
like this pure, like wholesome

person in order to like fit the
bill for these people. You have

to be a part of their little
cults in order to participate in

certain things And and God
forbid you are wholesome and

pure and you just don't want to
talk to one of the big creators

anymore And they throw a whole
ass fucking fit about it and ban

you from anything to do with
the big events and in Homestuck,

like, you can literally breathe
wrong And these people will ban

you from participating in
fandom group things. It's, it's

really just, it's insane.

Jackie: So one of the reasons
why I haven't even tried to

participate in any sort of like
group project for Homestuck

because I already know these
people hate my guts and that's

fine It sucks for me, because
the reason not that it doesn't

suck for you, but like so the
reason I started making friends

in the Homestuck community in
2019 was because I joined a

voice acting project, ended up
not getting anywhere because not

everyone's made out to be a
project manager, but, but I made

all my friends, some of who are
still friends with me. I made

some more after it, but, like I
made the majority of my friends,

i got into the Homestuck
community because I got cast in

a, a Friendsome voice acting
project. That is awesome Yeah,

and it was. It was a lot of fun
And I continue to get into other

voice acting projects. I and I
still like to do a lot of stuff

like that. There's actually a
podcast that's currently offline

But I'm going to start
uploading to. Mine is the doomed

timelines which my friend made,
where we got voice actors

together to read Homestuck
fanfic to like I love that? Yeah

, it's I. It is unfortunately
offline right now, but I'm

trying to get it back up because
it was a fun project. And I

miss being in Homestuck projects
. Right, like I miss submitting

to scenes, i miss being in voice
acting stuff And I also miss

the culture where, like, just
anyone could be part of a

project. Yeah, like I was a
nobody whenever I got cast in

the voice acting project. Like I
like had literally been on the

Twitter for like a month And
then I saw the audition and I

put my stuff in and I got it
Right. Hell, yeah, and it it

sucks. Yeah, that it's so clicky
that you have to know the right

people, that you have to say
the right things.

Sgt Spank: It's all about
publicity and just being like

the perfect little fandom robot
in order for people to enjoy you

as a person. It's very
dehumanizing, honestly, and it

sucks because there are
wonderful creators in this

fandom I mean like incredible
creators in this fandom that

have been ostracized from big
homesick projects because they

drew Borostreiter holding Dave's
hand once, or Gamzee kissing

Terezi or Amporo Sess like they
have been ostracized. It really

is just. You know, it's sad.
These people are so talented,

they're wonderful people and
that's the funny thing about it

is like. All the people who are
denying people a platform in

these fandom spaces are terrible
. They are so fucking mean and

their their favorite thing is
just bullying the shit out of

people and talking shit about
them, attempting to hurt feeling

, shitting on their art Like
it's their favorite fucking

thing, right, but these people
that you know create this

problematic content are the
nicest, most welcoming people

that I have ever fucking met
Like and I feel so safe with,

with these creators, and it's
just a pity that people don't

get to experience that. They
don't get to experience the oh,

we just love this thing and it's
not about like the ships that

we hate, it's not about making
everything pure and just going

for brawny points from
representation etc. Etc. Etc.

Like it's about just creating
with people that you care about,

which was what Homestuck was
always about and like creating

and enjoying the fandom in your
way with other people. I miss

the days of Homestuck, like
get-togethers at malls and shit.

I miss that.

Jackie: I miss. I'm sad I wasn't
around for this like. So here's

the thing I was around. I
started reading in like

2011-2012. I started reading
before the Kickstarter because I

backed the Kickstarter. I just
was reading a thousand and one

webcomics and I was in a fandom
for none of them and I just did

not make an exception for
Homestuck. I just did not look

up Homestuck people really.

Sgt Spank: That's fair.

Jackie: Just didn't get in
fandom and it's. It's just very

funny. I'm like this is a
webcomic. I'm not in a

questionable content fandom like
. So I was there and I just

missed out on a whole lot.

Sgt Spank: That's. It was
wonderful. I can honestly tell

you that the experiences I had
early on during Stuck's Big Boom

were phenomenal. I was in
Houston Stuck for a while

because that's where I'm from in
Houston and I would go to the

meetups, the Homestuck meetups
at the malls and they were

wonderful, like people would
bring food and their sketchbooks

and they would cosplay and I
went to. It was wonderful. There

was a Homestuck prom. I had
never been to prom before. I had

never been to prom before. I'm
a high school dropout. I just I

could not handle high school so
I dropped and you know severe

bully was the main reason I
dropped. That Never got to go to

prom. So I got to go to a
Homestuck prom with with one of

my partners and everybody
cosplayed. You know I was, i was

Tavros for it and my partner
was Gamtafe. This was back when

I was like like oh gee, sergeant
Spank era where I just drew a

lot of Gamtafe Fantastic Before
I came out as trans actually

Homestuck, indeed did trans my
gender, nice. But I went to prom

and there were so many
wonderful people there. Like I

had never felt like so happy to
be around a bunch of weird nerds

that love the same thing as me.
It was wonderful, like the, the

413 parties where everyone
would bake a cake and you know

binge watch shitty fucking
movies, conair, you know little

monster. Like it was wonderful
and I miss those days and I wish

we could go back to truly,
because that's what Homestuck

was all fucking about. It was
like a about community and just

having fucking fun with people.
It wasn't about well, you have

to be commercially like,
palatable to other people and

you can't do anything wrong ever
or enjoy anything bad ever, or

you're gonna make a slick bad.
Therefore, you are bad like it

wasn't like that.

Jackie: Yeah, strider says
shippers are the canary in the

fucking coal mine. If you can't
have, strider says shippers out

on normie Homestuck Twitter or
Homestuck Tumblr or wherever you

don't have a good fandom. It
was top ten. Yeah, it was

literally top ten ships. One of
my friends in a server said that

they saw a bro and a dave like
make out at like Seattle Pride.

Sgt Spank: Oh yeah, oh yeah,
like it was everywhere, it was

so common and and of course,
this was before, when there was

like fan and bro, like people
were really like they didn't

know as much as they do now
about bro, but it doesn't

fucking matter and I will spend
hours explaining, obviously not

on here and not on this episode,
but I could spend hours

explaining my thoughts on
burstrider and once shit came

out about him in the comic, like
people were, just like you know

, fuck burstrider, he's the
worst. Blah, blah, blah. And

yeah, everything felt a shit and
anybody who created there were

wonderful fucking artists that
just left, left the fandom

because of all of the drama and
all of the like, hatred and

vitriol.

Jackie: It's, it's terrible,
yeah me saying, bro, kicking

dave down the stairs was like
like just the bro day fight was

like funny, as it was meant to
be, was the start of me losing

one of my friends because, like
I mean, it was supposed to be

funny.

Sgt Spank: Supposed to be funny,
that's the joke. He's a fucking

fake white boy fucking
literally teaching a kid the way

of the samurai. That's what's
funny about it. He's teaching a

child the way of the samurai.
Why do you think he's doing this

shit that he's doing?

Jackie: like people honestly
will bring up. Bro hit Dave so

hard with his sword that Dave's
the record on Dave's shirt broke

and I'm like that's not an
injury, that's not a real thing.

That happens to people. That's
fucking Wiley Coyote painting a

fucking hole on the side of a
giant and then a train coming

out of it. Yeah, that's not an
injury.

Sgt Spank: He did not hit his
brother so hard that his record

broke as like that's not a real
thing it's ever the thing about

Homestuck is even the serious
parts, even the parts that

fucking hurt, even the parts
that, like, rip your soul out of

your body because they are so
sad, they are still meant to

have some semblance of fucking
humor. It is still supposed to

be funny.

Jackie: Yeah, oh, another.
Another thing that was funny

explicitly meant to be funny,
but was also a step in me losing

that friendship was when Friska
is looking at the cue ball, at

like asking about the future,
and it's like I'm about to blow

up in your face. And then the
next scene is it blows up in her

face. Yeah, that's fucking
hilarious, hilarious. Or risk of

being hit with her own arm
because Ekri is still has

control. Yeah, that's fucking
funny.

Sgt Spank: It's funny like the
whole thing is supposed to be.

One awful and morbid and two
funny yeah just like cartoons

yes, because they guess what
they're fucking cartoons and

risk is a great character. I do
enjoy Friska as a character.

Jackie: I love risk is so much.

Sgt Spank: I think risk is a
phenomenal example of a very

flawed and also very deep and
in-depth character, but the

fandom definitely likes to play
favorites over who is more

problematic and they definitely
choose Vriska as one of the

characters that is like, oh, she
can do, brisket did nothing

wrong, but they will shit other
characters, like unbashedly,

just not care about these other
characters and it's so backwards

.

Jackie: I just, whenever someone
makes me feeling just about

brisket because they're being
too loud about loving her, i

just make up more head canons
that they would hate.

Sgt Spank: Oh for brisket, like
transmask brisket, yeah ooh,

listen, risk is hot in every
form, every form brisket's hot

in every form. But I am also a
gay man so I have to say that I

would thoroughly enjoy a
transmask. Brisket, trans femme

brisket is great. Honestly,
transing any of the characters

genders is phenomenal and home
stuck. I personally had canon

Dave Strider as a trans man and
have for years. But also, if

people want to turn Dave into
dove, then fucking go for it.

Hell yeah, they are fucking
Barbie dolls. Please play with

them the way that you want to.

Jackie: Absolutely Okay. there
was something else I was going

to talk about when we talked
about your shit. Oh yeah, like

we kind of we touched on this
definitely with, like talking

about the clicks and stuff for
fandom, the very much like this

person did something wrong, so
you have to unfollow them. And

oh, this person still follows
them, so you have to unfollow

them. And it's just like
spreading out ripples of like so

far away from the original
person who was quote, unquote.

bad that, like you just have
like a whole chain of people you

have to unfollow because
they're not unfollowing based on

dumb shit.

Sgt Spank: Yeah, it's a toxic
game of telephone. Yeah, i've

definitely been one of those
people that's like don't follow

Sergeant Spank because of X, y
and Z.

Jackie: Oh, i had someone
somehow had been following me

for months after I like
definitely was out as like pro

ship on my verification account,
who started adding people and

being like hey, uh, uh,
jerkification is pro ship, are

you aware of that? you're
following them. What was

hilarious, you know, getting rid
of that. I did have mutuals

block me after that. What was
hilarious is they did at my

podcast account where I have
verification in the bio as like,

this is the person who runs it,
right. But they did at my

podcast being like hey, you
follow verification, they're pro

ship, by the way. And I was
like hi, that's me, that's me.

Yeah, yes, i'm gonna unfollow
myself.

Sgt Spank: It's very weird
because people like to take pro

ship and pro fiction and they
really like to bend what that

actually means to fit their
narrative.

Jackie: Yeah, what.

Sgt Spank: I mean, like I am
very much. what I say is, I am

very much pro leaving people the
fuck alone over because people

think that pro ship and pro
thick are just like, yeah, pro

pedophilia, pro Zufilia And it's
like that's. that's not how it

works. Just because you watch
scream doesn't mean that you're

going to put on a fucking
Halloween mask and start killing

teenagers. Like it does not
fucking work like that. And

people apply different logic to
things that are sexual All the

fucking time. I cannot believe
somebody was like you should

unfollow this person and it was
you. I would lose my mind. I

would lose my mind, i would
absolutely go crazy.

Jackie: I took a screenshot of
my bio and circled my my name in

the bio saying like yeah, this
is me. This is me. You did a bad

job.

Sgt Spank: I'm trying to find
the one where this person was

like oh, you shouldn't follow a
sergeant spank because he's a.

He's a trans. Oh my God. And I
was called a trans folk for

drawing trans Dave as a trans
man. Yes, that is the most thing

you can do.

Jackie: My favorite thing was
dirtification the account that I

was called a June skeptic, on
the account that people accuse

me of trans misogyny for not
even openly disliking June, but

just not liking the culture
around June, and making some

mild posts about it and getting
into argument with one trans

person. Shinigami eyes lists me
as green. Are you aware of

Shinigami eyes?

Sgt Spank: Shinigami eyes.

Jackie: So it's an extension
that will list some people as

green if they are confirmed to
be cool with trans people and

will list people as red if they
are confirmed trans folks. Okay,

so it's really handy to just
like discount someone's argument

out of hand is like, hey, i
don't know if this person like

maybe is saying something they
don't realize is bad or what,

and then they're they're like a
red in Shinigami eyes and like,

oh no, they're just this is a
thing for them. Is they just go

around and make like statements
to get you to debate you into

arguments, right, right, but my
certification account is listed

as green, so when people see it
they will see a trans ally and

I'm so happy about it That's
wonderful.

Sgt Spank: I could not tell you.
That is the same for for me,

because I draw Dave, bro, you
know yeah, but you're not.

Jackie: You're not on there as
either red or green, which is

how most people are, oh, but
like I don't think the person

listens to fandom drama reasons,
i think you'd have to actually

show like proof of actual
transphobia.

Sgt Spank: I see, i see, i see.

Jackie: Sometimes I'll just go
through my followers and see if

anyone pops up as red or if I'm
seeing discourse going around.

But a lot of them who are
starting it feels baby and

they're all red and just like
block, block, block.

Sgt Spank: Well, I mean, as is
your God given right?

Jackie: So many people. I have
such a hard time on my main

Twitter, like my main home stuck
Twitter, because I've blocked

so many people that I'm like I
need to find more home stuck

people. But it's very hard. Yeah
there's fear involved. Yeah,

there's fear involved And it's
just like I blocked a lot of the

main people I don't know if
they're still main people and I

never will because I blocked
them and they blocked me. It was

a mutual blocking by almost
every BNF at the time. Oh yeah,

so I didn't talk about virtue
signaling a little bit. I never

really thought about it too much
until I was on the home, stuck

Reddit, and I get I don't like
scroll through there often, i

just get I just let Reddit send
me notifications and sometimes

it was like this person made
some fan art and like, oh cool,

like the fan art, maybe say
something nice about it, right,

and people started doing these,
these shipped here lists, and

this one was notable because
some of the ones included were

like Dave bro and John bro and
stuff like that. Okay, it's a

weird ship here list, because I
went to do it and they didn't

have like Airden and Vriska as a
ship. They didn't, or they did,

they did not. And I'm like you
have to at least pair all the

trolls together. I love that
shit. That's such a good shit,

exactly, and it's like canon in
the comic, like why don't you

have this one? but you have like
, like you have bro dad And

honestly like oh, yes, which
yeah, not shitting on, bro. Dad

is just like but you have like
something that that is like

crack ship adjacent, but you
don't have a cannon ship on.

It's a really weird chip tier
list.

Sgt Spank: Well, people don't
like to acknowledge that Airden

and Vriska had a lot of
chemistry and that they like

roleplay together and shit.

Jackie: But you have bro on it.

Sgt Spank: I know it's backwards
.

Jackie: Like that's, that's my
thing is like I would get it if

they were ignoring all all ships
deemed problematic, but they

weren't.

Sgt Spank: Not at all. Dave bro
is like tops here, like the most

problematic ship in the band.

Jackie: So anyway, but people
were posting those. One person

posted it and had John Jade at
the top or like near the top,

and people were big mad about it
. Why? Because it's John Jade.

Sgt Spank: But there's chemistry
I don't understand like.

Jackie: But yeah, and didn't
have a lot of like because this

this person organized it into
quadrants And so put a lot of

wallower ships into pale
quadrants. Okay, and got mad

about that, because people will
both simultaneously say pale is

romantic. So I can't believe you
put Karkat Kanaya in the pale

and also say I can't believe you
put Rosemary in in pale.

they're canonically flush. And
he was like this is my, this is

my thing, this is what I
personally these are my Barbie

dolls. Like I can't believe you
have a John Jade in in flush and

you hate Rosemary. Try to be
like you're just a lesbaphobe,

you just hate gay people and
it's like first verse. First

verse, he was also at the top.
What do you want? But in what I

was in response to this was
someone use that ship tier list

again. But just had a tier one.
Just had a tier list at the

bottom that was labeled as
incest, pedophilic or something

else like otherwise problematic.
What? Yeah, like they included

a tier at the bottom for the
incest pedo ships so they could

put, like you know, john Jade
and bro John and all of that

down there. Wait, okay.

Sgt Spank: And what. What is
inherently like so awfully

disgusting about John Jade
besides the fact that it was

fucking incest, because this is
something that I've talked to

with with friends. With those
friends, Incest is one of the

most basic bitch baby fucking
like vanilla problematic kinks

that there are. Really truly
fucking is. But people and

people love to lump pedophilia
and incest together very, very

often And it's it's just wild to
me that this is what they are

hung up on when there is canon
incest in the.

Jackie: Yeah, yeah, no, it's,
it's an issue. So and my thing

was you don't have to put those
ships on there, like the tier

list maker does not make you put
everything on the tier list. So

this was my like oh, you're
just actively virtue signaling,

you're just saying, literally,
ships I don't like and think are

bad, they're gross and icky,
and so I'm putting them on here.

So you know that I think
they're gross and icky.

Sgt Spank: And I'm a better
person because I think they're

gross and icky. Yeah, that's
literally it. That's what they

do Like.

Jackie: I would have had less of
a problem if it was just like

an A through F and then on F
they just had all the ships they

don't like and think are gross
and icky, like that's fine,

that's what it's for. But to
specifically say I think this is

pedophilia. Here's the ship. I
think it's pedophilia.

Sgt Spank: They claim that any
like guardian with the kid, one

of the better kids or the alpha
kids, incest and the phantom is

automatically pedophilic,
despite them being, like, grown

as adults And I was actually. I
saved a few screenshots and on

articles about these issues and
virtue signaling is something

that they do and it's harmful
because they will put in reports

. For you know, cartoon lowly,
show bullshit, right, yeah, and

there's, there's like an entire
article on IWF, which is the

Internet Watch Foundation, and
it says thousands of images and

videos of child sexual abuse
could be going undetected

because of false reports. And it
is virtue signaling. It's like

look at this, look, look at
these bad, awful, nasty people,

and it's actively harming.

Jackie: Yeah, because they have
to wade through cartoons.

Sgt Spank: Yep, this says. In
May 2019, the UK's independent

inquiry into child sexual abuse
heard that reports received by

the National Crime Authority
from the United States hotline

in CMEC included large numbers
of non actionable images,

including cartoons, along with
personally identifiable

information of those responsible
for uploading them. According

to Swiss police, up to 90
percent of the reports received

from NCMEC related to innocent
images Like.

Jackie: Yeah, like that is an
actual, like moral, real world,

ethical effects, people issue.

Sgt Spank: It is, but they don't
care once it affects real

people.

Jackie: Yeah, And they just they
have to. it's like putting like

the stuff in in their like
freaks D and I like that's

virtue signaling. No one knows
what that means Like okay.

Sgt Spank: So sorry that you're
bland and boring. Yeah right,

Like okay, i will not interact.
You have a shitty attitude. Why

would I want to?

Jackie: Okay, especially queer
people, even those who are

unrelated to fandom, especially
those who are unrelated to

fandom, will see freaks D and I
and it's like oh, that's about

me, though, even if, like the
person putting it in their D and

I do not consider that there's
just a lot of sex negativity.

There's a lot of purity around.
another topic we haven't even

fucking touched on, but
oppression Olympics.

Sgt Spank: Yes.

Jackie: Oh my God. Someone on
Tumblr posted how, like you guys

laugh at the Overwatch
oppression chart. But that's how

you guys work, yeah, so like
they rack up the points based on

like their own Overwatch
oppression chart and decide who

is the most oppressed, and that
person is correct. It doesn't

even have to be about something
that affects them, but they're

just automatically the most
correct about whatever it is,

unless, of course, they're
disagreeing with the person

talking about it, in which case
they're like a pick me or

poisoned or something.

Sgt Spank: God what I can say
about the oppression Olympics,

what my personal experience with
that is. there was a point in

time during all this anti
discourse where people were like

, ok, you're allowed to create
these things If you openly tell

people what you've been through
you're exactly like give me your

life story And then I will
decide whether or not you are

allowed to draw or consume this
certain type of media. And a lot

of people ended up I,
technically, was one of them

Coming out about you know,
things that had happened to them

and like had to express like,
oh well, i'm enjoying this shit

because it helps me cope with
certain trauma, which is

completely backed up by
therapists. There are so many

fucking therapists out there
that have very openly stated

that engaging in problematic
media can be helpful for people

who are traumatized. Right Yeah,
but it went from that like they

kept changing the goalposts,
right, like. So it went from

like OK, you're allowed to enjoy
this type of fiction. If you've

been through this to well, you
still shouldn't create it

anyways. And if you, if you do
create this thing, then

obviously you liked what
happened to you, like terrible,

awful things to say to survivors
. And then it became oh well,

i've been through this and
people like you creating this

certain kind of content is the
reason why this shit happened to

me. Do you know what I mean?
Like I've, i've literally been

told that I'm the reason that
somebody was sexually assaulted

by a family member because of
the things that I draw and the

things that I create, and it
really is just. I've had it

worse than you and fuck you for
creating this content and I'm

better than you because I have
been through worse than. I'm

just sick of it. You know what I
mean.

Jackie: Yeah, it's absolutely
fucked up. You know, sometimes

you'll sit down and do the
research for one of these people

because they say they want the
research and you'll do it and

they don't want the research.

Sgt Spank: Yeah.

Jackie: No, because they don't.
I've talked to my therapist,

like it came up, because I'm
like yeah, this person's, i'm

being harassed by this person,
are these people? they're like

why are they harassing you? and
I explain and they're like but

that's fine, what you're doing
is fine.

Sgt Spank: Yeah, like therapists
are legally required to put you

the fuck away if they believe
that's something that you are

doing is wrong and evil. And
like they are legally required

to report to authorities if
you're doing something fucking

illegal and dangerous. They have
to, yeah they have to. It is a

part of their fucking job And it
doesn't matter to these people

because they're afraid. They're
afraid that if they agree with

this logic, that they will lose
whole, entire friend groups.

They are afraid that if they
actually start to believe these

people that are like they're
just cartoons, nobody's getting

hurt, that they will be
demonized and ostracized as well

.

Jackie: And it sucks because
nine times out of 10, they're

right. I lost my whole entire
friend group, partially because

of the June drama and everything
that happened around that.

Sgt Spank: Why I just don't. I
can't understand that the blow

up.

Jackie: What from one friend
group that imploded on me was

when I said no, i like John, is
John not as June. And that ended

that whole friend group for me.

Sgt Spank: That's I mean. But
there's multiple universes.

They're allowed to love June and
you're allowed to love John,

Like, yeah it's, there are
multiple fucking universes in

which you can enjoy a certain
character, Cause I like June too

. I also like Transmask John.
The fucking options are infinite

, Absolutely Infinite.

Jackie: That's what makes it
great. But yeah, so I lost

friends for that. And then I
also lost friends when I started

posting more like pro-ship
adjacent view And then I started

just telling people like, hey,
I'm about to be problematic on

main, you're probably going to
get targeted if you stay friends

with me, so I'm letting you
know now.

Sgt Spank: That's awful. I am so
sorry. You should not have to

warn your friends that you're
going to be talking about

fictional characters and it's
going to be like heavy And like.

Your friends shouldn't be
afraid of that. But it makes no

sense.

Jackie: Yeah, and like I was
going through a whole lot, i was

not in a good headspace, so
it's stuff. It's an era. I

probably would have done
different now, right, but I did

have some friends drop. I had
some friends stick around and

then I had some friends drop
later when they realized oh no,

you were serious. You are
causing conflict with other

people, i know because you're
doing your own thing over there.

Sgt Spank: Why is there conflict
to be had, is my question.

Jackie: Like it's all dumb shit.
And then I've had people who

have had people block them and
they still stick around me And I

definitely appreciate that.
Like That's wonderful. Yeah, it

just sucks because some people
are becoming disillusioned in

the rest of everyone Because,
like I tried to keep my shit to

myself, right, i don't want to
go. Hey, i know your friends

with all these people. Well,
they were kind of shitty to me.

I think you should, like I don't
want to like try to please

people's friendships because,
like a lot of times is, they

were ex-friends that I was
friends with And I'm like maybe

it was just a me problem And
then I'm just watching other

people slowly realize that oh no
, they are being shitty about

things And that sucks. Like you
have, like I became

disillusioned with some of my
friends and some of Wampumkin

people who I did get targeted
specifically by And it's just

wild Like for having the wrong
opinions. And again, initially

my wrong opinions weren't even
in the problematic fiction era.

It was a different type of
purity culture that just doesn't

get talked about enough. It was
just you don't have the right

head canons And I'm like, wow,
yeah, i've definitely

experienced that too.

Sgt Spank: People don't like the
way I draw striders, which is

fine, That's fine. And I've been
, you know, shut on for head

canning, head canning my
striders the way that I do, and

it's like here's the thing. I
draw these characters a lot of

the time. I kind of put a little
bit of myself. This is gonna

sound crazy, but I kind of put a
little bit of myself into their

experiences because I relate
very heavily with Dave Strider

as a character. I grew up in
fucking Houston like poor broke

a shit with not great fucking
parents And I just I latched

onto this character very fucking
heavily because I understand I

draw these characters like me to
some degree because I relate to

them so heavily and people hate
that shit.

Jackie: They will hate that shit
, but yeah sorry, i remember the

point I was trying to make
before and then I ended it at. I

ended up forgetting what point
I was going at. Oh, go for it

yeah, But yeah so the point is
is like yes, you are most likely

gonna lose friend groups if you
come out as like pro ship, if

you like, post pro ship stuff if
you like, or anti harassment.

Yeah anti harassment. If you
stop caring, if you don't like,

buy in to blocking everyone who
is friends with people. who are

friends with people, right,
right, but like.

Sgt Spank: Yeah, but they're not
worth it.

Jackie: Yeah, they're not worth
it. You're gonna find so many

better friends on the other end,
not that everyone on this side

is like great, there's shitty
people here, there's abusers

here. There always is. Every
part of every community is going

to have the worst of the worst.

Sgt Spank: Yeah, just like
they're convicted fucking

pedophiles in the anti movement.
It just is what it is, Yeah

convicted pedophiles.

Jackie: convicted Okay, i will
say I prefer saying convicted

sexual abusers, because not all
sexual abusers are pedophiles

and often they aren't. Oh yeah.

Sgt Spank: So that's just. There
have been a few pedophiles

caught in the fandom, though,
for sure.

Jackie: Yeah, but like child
sexual abusers, i just like to

like say that as the term,
because like Absolutely. Stuff

I'm not gonna get into on this
episode. It's a whole other

episode. That's another episode
that I want research to back me

up on.

Sgt Spank: That's fine, totally
understandable.

Jackie: But as far as like
conviction stuff goes But yeah,

like convicted, Like no I do
remember one person saying, yes,

I did rape my sister or my
stepsister, or like some person,

but at least I'm not pro-ship.

Sgt Spank: Yeah, I do remember
that And he was, I think he. I'm

gonna say he.

Jackie: I think it was a he-team
, maybe.

Sgt Spank: I do remember that. I
do remember him admitting that

and people just like sucking his
fucking ass and like, oh, it's

okay. I also saw somebody that
was like quoting a

anti-harassment individual, like
a pro-fiction individual. They

were quoting them like you don't
care about real people more

than you care about fictional
characters, and they were like,

yeah, that's the whole point,
absolutely. They're like so

close to getting the fucking
point. Yeah, so close to fucking

understanding and missing the
mark every single fucking time.

Jackie: It reminds me of the one
post someone made where it's

like they just green-shotted
something a Republican said Like

the thing about Democrats is
that they would save a person

over the Statue of Liberty. Like
they think people are more

important than like I don't know
, just like some shit like that,

where it's like yes, of course.
It's like yes, yes, they are.

Sgt Spank: Yeah, like oh, you
think people deserve housing and

deserve to be able to fucking
eat and live comfortably and be

able to pay their rent with
their fucking paycheck, with one

fucking paycheck, just be able
to pay their full fucking rent.

Yes, yes, i do. I believe that
minimum wage fucking workers

believe or deserve to be able to
feed themselves and pay for

their fucking rent. Why is this
so hard for you to grasp?

Jackie: It's just so funny that
like it's those conservatives

putting cultural significant
things over individual people.

Sgt Spank: And anti-seize? the
same shit, exactly Well,

anti-seize tend to, you know,
subscribe with the same ideals

that conservatives have all the
time.

Jackie: But they just like put
it in some sort of progressive

sounding language, which is what
fucking got me. Fucking got me

for a while.

Sgt Spank: You've grown as a
person, and that's a beautiful

thing.

Jackie: Yeah, you just grow and
you self-reflect and you change.

I just want people to know that
, like, if you're afraid of what

your friends are going to say,
for like things that literally

don't harm anyone else. Because
that's one of the things that

really got me when I was being
harassed, right, when all my

friends were dropping like flies
, whenever I was finding out

that people I've never talked to
were talking about me, that I

didn't even know they knew me
was like I didn't hurt anyone,

right, i've never hurt it. Well,
in this context, i'm not saying

I've never hurt anyone, i'm a
person. I'm a person I've hurt

people, right, right, but, like,
in that situation, i was not

being harassed and ostracized
because I hurt anyone.

Sgt Spank: No, you were being
harassed and ostracized of a

cartoon and you should never
have to be afraid that your

friends are going to hate you
for liking your cartoons a

certain way and doing certain
things with your cartoons and

your family. You should never be
afraid of that. You should

never be afraid of losing
somebody over that. And people

shouldn't be police and queer
people and how they enjoy

fictional cartoon media period,
because we've been demonized for

that shit for long enough, for
just having queer experiences

for long enough. it's time to
stop that shit.

Jackie: I need to wrap it up now
. Is there any last points you

want to make before we wrap?

Sgt Spank: up. My last point is
I guess basically what I want to

say is if something makes you
happy and you want to create

that thing, do not worry about
what other people think about

you creating that thing. Create
it because, at the end of the

day, those people do not fucking
matter. At the end of the day,

you have yourself and what makes
you happy is more fucking

important. Like, you are not
anybody's therapist, okay, you

are not a fucking babysitter.
You are not getting paid to care

about these random ass internet
people. If you want to create

something because it makes you
happy and you are not hurting

anybody, create it. Do not stop,
do not get discouraged. You are

not alone in feeling these
feelings and being afraid. I

have experienced quite a bit of
fear and it has definitely

fucked with my brain quite a bit
to think about how I've

affected other people. At the
end of the fucking day, these

are other people, most of them
strangers are going to have a

problem with you and fuck them.
It doesn't matter. At the end of

the day, care about you, care
about what you like, and you

will find people that care about
you. Despite whatever fucking

shit you like, people are going
to care about you, no matter

what. You just have to find the
right circles and the right

friends. If these people are
making you afraid, then you

should not be in contact with
them. Just love yourself,

because it took me a while to
start loving myself again and to

give myself a platform to
create again, because I felt so

fucking guilty. So don't feel
guilty.

Jackie: That's great. I don't
think I have anything to add on

to that, because that's like the
whole fucking point right? Yeah

, it really is Cool. In that
case, is there anything you want

to plug?

Sgt Spank: Yeah, you can find my
merchandise I have. My body

pillow is up for $44 now I've
cut the price considerably On

Etsy I'm a Corvids horde On Etsy
. On Twitter, my not-safer work

is Sergeant Spunk. Just one full
word no dash. My safer work,

twitter is Sergeant Spank. I'm
Sergeant Spank on everything,

mostly, for the most part, and
you can find me pretty much

anywhere. Just search Sergeant
Spank on Google, you'll be fine,

trust me. Trust me.

Jackie: Yeah, okay, in that case
, thank you very much for coming

on. I am certain I'm going to
have you on again for one thing

or another.

Sgt Spank: I'm so excited. I
appreciate you having me. in

general, this was a lot of fun.
It was great to get to talk to

somebody about this stuff.

Jackie: It's been a long time
coming and coming And it's not

going to stop here. In fact, i
just might take things we talked

about and turn individual parts
into one whole episode, and

this is just our kind of
overview.

Sgt Spank: Introductory Yeah,
yeah, overview Sounds great to

me. Okay, awesome, i would love
to be back.

Jackie: Yes, in that case I will
see you all in however long.

The next episode? a week, two
weeks a time. I'll see you guys

at a time. Goodbye, bye.