Fandom Bitchfest: Homestuck Edition with Sgt Spank
Download MP3Jackie: Hey, this is Jackie aka
Jax and welcome back to a
special episode of Live Laugh
Stuck. Or maybe this is another
podcast, i still haven't decided
. Maybe it's both. Formatting
and decisions are hard. Anyway,
i have a very special guest with
me here today and we're going
to talk about some very special
topics. Sergeant Spank, who the
fuck are you?
Sgt Spank: Well, people most
know me from my bro body pillows
that I put out and won one-two
like Homestuck Contest for, and
I'm known in the fandom as the
Stryder-cessed chipper of all
time. It's pretty much me. My
whole legacy is just trashy fan
art for fun.
Jackie: It's good trashy fan art
. I still want that, bro. Boob
mouse pad.
Sgt Spank: Oh yeah, well, I'll
let you know when it comes back
in stock.
Jackie: Yeah, i Yeah it's just
just love it. But yes, so, as
you might tell from that
introduction, spicy topics here
today, because today we are
going to be talking about kind
of Homestuck, fandom purity
culture and maybe fandom purity
culture in general. But let's
see if we can keep it laser
focused on on Homestuck, because
we both have plenty experience
in that general area, we sure do
That said, if this is an
episode y'all don't want to
listen to, don't listen to it.
Like it's fine, i'm not going to
have my feelings hurt. Uh,
start to spank, you're not going
to have your feelings hurt?
Sgt Spank: Not at all.
Jackie: It's. You know people.
People say that they come here
for a good chill time and this
is a good fun time. Chill might
not be it.
Sgt Spank: No, probably not
chill Most part. I mean we're
going to get into some heavy
topics, i think, but still fun,
no less Yeah.
Jackie: I think. Yeah, um, but
yeah, definitely not everyone's
cup of tea. So just go on and
skip this one, and I might
instead of doing every other
week I might put this, i might
have one coming up next week,
just so you don't have to wait
too long for a classic episode.
Okay, i guess it is kind of a
good idea to start with some
background. So I used to be kind
of in the whole purity culture
mindset. It's really weird
because now we have the terms
anti and pro ship or anti, anti
or there's like a billion other
fucking names for it, but anti
usually tends to say about the
same Yeah. And I never ascribed
any of those words to myself. I
was just told that certain
things were bad and I felt
guilty about liking those things
and it was just more proof that
I'm a bad person and I just
internalized a lot of that. I
never really harassed anyone
about it. The only thing I did
once was someone posted porn in
the not to say for work channel
of a hive swap, a friend, some
character who was potentially
underage, and I said some shit
against that. But that's the
most I did And this is not to
like. I don't know. I'm not
saying I was actually one of the
good ones, because it still
sucked. It was just more bad for
me than for anyone else. If
that makes sense Absolutely.
Sgt Spank: And the whole anti
movement is kind of centered
around shaming people and to
believing that these kinks or
the things that they consume in
a fictional context is supposed
to be pure. And if you don't
follow those rules then you are
dirty, disgusting, Like that's
their whole thing. So their
whole memo is to guilt you if
you do not consume nothing but
coffee shop AUs throughout your
entire time and certain fandoms.
So yeah, of course you were
made to feel like guilty.
Absolute garbage. Yeah, I mean
absolute garbage. It's a cult.
Jackie: So yeah, and I had my
you're. are you familiar? you're
familiar with Orna High School
host club? right, absolutely.
Sgt Spank: So you know it's what
got me into incest ships?
Jackie: Yeah, absolutely. Yes,
of course It got all of us, like
90s kids, into incest ships,
absolutely. But you know, at the
beginning, as in the episode,
they're slowly figuring out, how
are we as a girl? there's like
the light bulb start coming on.
Yeah, so I had my light bulb
start coming on over the course
of like some months.
Sgt Spank: Okay.
Jackie: Yeah, So the first one
was I was in a friend server
that just if you wanted to know
the dirt on fucking anything in
popular homestuck Twitter, you
went there and I was there, And
so one of the things I got
posted there was the problematic
zine. Was there a different
name? because I'm getting it
confused because there was a
different problem problematic
zine with an eight as the B.
that was about like characters
people considered problematic.
Here's the scene about them. And
then there was the problematic
zine. that was more about like
the character shifts and
interactions and stuff that was
considered problematic and made
a zine about them.
Sgt Spank: Honestly, god, i
could not tell you, because I
haven't been super prevalent in
a bunch of organized like fan
activities until very recently.
Honestly, that's fair. So I have
no idea. You'll have to tell me
all about that.
Jackie: Yeah, well, this was
back in 2019 and the first one
came out and it had ships like
I'm pretty sure it had like rose
dock scratch in there. It had
some more vanilla ones too. Like
it wasn't just all, it was just
like you can do whatever in
here, right, but yeah. But like
this was not a positive space
where it was shared. Everyone
looked at it and everyone made
fun of it and would like, why
would anyone make any of this?
That was my first life out
moment because, like, if you
think it's like terrible, bad,
immoral, the worst, why are you
sharing it and looking at it?
Sgt Spank: It's to pick on it
People, it's. It's. You know,
kids did that shit in high
school. Like they targeted
certain people to shit talking
bully. A lot of that came from
being bullied themselves And so
they decided, you know, well, i
need to target to if I'm going
to be a target, and they kind of
take their frustration to lack
control they have in their life
out on other people, for, you
know, no other reason than to
feel better about themselves,
and it's sad, but, like I get
the logic behind it, their logic
behind it. It doesn't make it
OK though, you know, like it's,
it's free to be nice to people,
just be nice.
Jackie: And I guess a lot of my
things is. This was a lesser
extent of how aunties will share
things they think is literally
illegal, but they'll share it
and they'll post it and
everything And this like well, i
don't think anyone said
anything and there was literally
illegal. It was still like. If
you think this is so immoral to
like consume, why are you?
Sgt Spank: consuming it Right
And spreading it and sharing it
If you think it's so bad that
people are seeing it and
experiencing it and having to
look at it.
Jackie: Yeah, like you went out
of your way to get this and
share it here. And my second
light bulb moment was I have to
be careful because the the at
least one person involved
doesn't want to be like brought
up in anything ever again, which
is fair, absolutely. But like I
was in a group with two friends
, in one, friend had posted, or
like retweeted, a thing about
how, like 16 year old anime
characters are made to be
considered attractive and not
necessarily look 16. That's the
draw. That's why people find
them attractive is because
they're made to look like
attractive adults nine times out
of 10.
Sgt Spank: Yeah.
Jackie: And in that group the
other person blew up, said we're
harboring a pedophile, left the
group and I shamefully cut
contact with the first person. I
have since reconnected and
apologized and we're chill now.
Sgt Spank: That's great. Yes, i
mean, and I understand, because
you probably feel very pressured
. That's scary. You know what I
mean.
Jackie: Yeah, especially not to
narrow this down more, but the,
the, the person who blew up,
carried much more weight in the
fandom. It wasn't a fun time.
Sgt Spank: No, I imagine not.
Jackie: But I had agreed with
that post when I saw it, so that
was kind of like my second
light bulb moment. My final
light bulb moment was someone
saying noncon was bad and anyone
who liked it was a rapist. And
I'm like, oh no, no, no, no. I
read noncon in my grandma's
Harlequin romance collection in
her guest bedroom when I was
like 12. Yeah, i've researched
this. It's fine. You're
literally wrong.
Sgt Spank: Like think about the
stripping beauty series that
Anne Rice wrote Right.
Jackie: Yeah, like noncon is so
normalized in our culture, like
as far as kinks go, yeah, you
don't have to like it, but you
know. Yeah, it's literally fine,
like it's still on the spicier
side of things, but again, my
grandma's collection of romance
novels had it in it, right, yeah
, and so that was my final light
bulb and my final switch over
to the pro ship side of things.
Yeah, and everything went
downhill from there until it
went uphill and everything's
great now.
Sgt Spank: Oh, it's good. I mean
, i completely understand. I
never really hit the anti side.
I never. I never really touched
that personally because I'm 31
years old, you know I grew up in
like old fandom shit, you know
what I mean. Like I'm talking
like when sailormooncom had like
a chat room and an email system
And like when AIM was a thing
like I, yeah, and was it. Winamp
was like a MP3 player or
something, a digital MP3 player.
So I'm old as there And so I
sort of experienced fandom
through friends in high school,
people I had met online and I
had never in my life experienced
people being so like like
basing their moral compass on
what they like in fandom. I
never really experienced that
because to me they were always
just fucking cartoons, they were
always just Barbie dolls to
just do whatever with, and it
didn't affect anybody, it didn't
ruin anyone's day If I like a
certain ship. Like I never
really experienced the anti side
of things until my body pillow
the borough strider one, that a
bro came out and I was
definitely targeted after that
And it certainly had me
questioning for a long time
about whether or not I was a bad
, a bad, terrible person. Like
breakdowns, breakdowns Like yeah
, maybe these people are right,
you know, but I never fully
subscribed to those ideas and I
never will, because there's
absolutely no reason to. It's
very unhealthy to base morality
on what kind of cartoons and
what kind of media you consume,
because just because you enjoy
Hannibal, for example, doesn't
mean that you know you're going
to become a fucking cannibal. It
doesn't work that way. So it
just. To me it's just. It makes
more sense And I'm so sorry that
you have that experience with
your friend. Yeah.
Jackie: And I think the reason
why it happened, because I'm I
just turned 32. I my first
fanfic experience was on your
member, quasilla. I do remember
Quasilla Yeah, i only read
fanfics on Quasilla and I did
not go there for fanfics, i went
there for quizzes. And then
fanfics happened, right, and
every, just about every fanfic I
read if it was longer than a
couple of chapters eventually
had the main character who was
basically a self insert. Mary
Sue experienced noncon. It was
extremely common And there was
like, oh my God, all the band
RPF that I read like I started
out Phantom in a very like what
is now considered a problematic
space, but I never made online
connections. I like would make
one or two friends and then not
keep in touch with them, and I
never made like online fandom
friends. I was very bad at that.
2019 is the first time I really
made online fandom friends.
It's just they happened to be in
this anti mindset and it wasn't
something that even came up for
like months, right, right, and
by then I was just, you know,
very good at guilty myself and
thinking that I was the problem
and stuff.
Sgt Spank: Yeah, i mean they
make it really easy, yeah, to
fill that way. You know what I
mean. I can honestly say the
same about not having really
experienced, you know, like a
group of people that really
engaged with fandom until I got
home stuck I initially got
started in home stuck in about
2011, i want to say, oh, yeah,
so I mean I've been around for
quite a bit in the fandom And
back then Strider Sest was one
of the top 10 ships And so, and
so I mean I think that's why
Strider Sest is keen, that's why
, yeah, and so, like it's it's.
It's very interesting for the
fandom to take such a massive
like nose dive because it like
problematic ships were just
normal lives in the sense that,
like, everybody agreed that it
was just fiction and they just
enjoyed their fiction and went
about their lives like whatever,
because you know it's it's
again, it's cartoons. So it's
very weird how it took a turn
And I think it had to be like
2015 when it started, really,
because I think it started with
a Ralo situation where people
like using their shit, ralo.
Jackie: That is when I started
getting those ideas on Tumblr.
It's so funny because the
Voltron sheath versus Clant
stuff happened And I knew that
that was done because I shipped
sheath Right, i shipped sheath.
How can you not see the sheath
chemistry? What do you mean?
they're brothers. What do you
mean? it's pedophile. You're not
making any sense.
Sgt Spank: They're both adults,
yeah.
Jackie: They're. They're both
adults, they're not brothers.
What are you talking about? And
then the Ralo stuff happened and
I fell for that hard. I had
only watched the first movie,
did not really care, and I fell
for the Ray, the anti-Ralo stuff
. That's when I saw anti DDLG
stuff pop up. I blame everything
on Voltron. I don't know if
that's historically accurate,
but definitely around then is
where I saw like a huge surge in
like cool, we're going after
everything now, absolutely. And
it was framed in such social
justice terms that I started
getting into that mindset and
feeling feeling guilty for the
things I did, like Yeah, and it
really did feel like it was out
of nowhere.
Sgt Spank: And then people
started like to really subscribe
to the idea that you know what
you consume through these shows
is what you like in real life.
You know what you would want
from your own relationship.
People started believing that
artists that had been creating
this content for years, that
they used to be okay with, were
all of a sudden predators. It
really is just sort of a
buzzwords and fear mongering
type situation. I think. Yeah,
and it's also got very high
school click Regina George
plastic he can't sit with us
kind of energy. Yeah, and that's
what it is Like. It's a group
of bullies that you know
indoctrinates people into this
crazy cold where they believe
that queer sex is really dirty
and bad and wrong if it's not
presented in a really super cure
and soft way. But they'll, but
they will absolutely be okay
with violence And, like they,
they don't care if it's violence
, but if it's sex, you know they
have an issue. That's queer sex
.
Jackie: They have an issue. It's
really funny because, like,
people who draw a bunch of gore
are really into gore. It will be
like it's not, like you can
drop jack off to gore And I'm
like, oh, oh, babe, you don't
even know. Yeah, of course you
can. Tons of people do, yeah,
yeah, it's. It's also really
funny to me because, like Game
of Thrones was like alive and
strong at that time. Right, game
of Thrones is when I go back to
often, one of a lot of people
go back to often when it's like
there is a mega popular cultural
sensation that is rife with
incense, incense, incest and
noncon and underage
relationships and just really
heavy themes And these people
don't go after.
Sgt Spank: George R R Martin,
that's his name.
Jackie: Yeah, george R R Martin,
they and they barely go after
the fans. I think they go after
the fans more now because the
current series running is
explicitly about main characters
who are in to incest. Like
incest relationships, yeah, but
like they're not real. Yeah,
They're not real And it's just
like the Lannister brother and
sister. Their relationship was
not portrayed in that negatively
of a light. It was definitely
portrayed as romantic in plenty
of times.
Sgt Spank: Oh yeah, she was like
in love with him. Yeah, like
explicitly Yes, yeah, absolutely
You.
Jackie: That show did not
suddenly make everyone think
incest was okay.
Sgt Spank: No, no, they didn't.
And consuming media with incest
and it doesn't automatically
mean that you believe that
incest is okay and the real
fucking world you know, with
real people. That's not how it
works. It's like it ties into
the like thought crime thing,
where it's like you believe that
you consume this fiction and
you think about this thing.
Therefore, you engage in this
thing in real life and believe
this thing is okay, like people
who have and I think it's really
shitty and honestly kind of
ableist to apply thought crime
to people in fandom, because
people with intrusive thoughts
they, you know experience pretty
awful things when it comes to
intrusive thoughts. It's kind of
taking this idea about thought
crimes and how, like, if you
think about this thing, then
you're going to do this thing,
and completely negates anything
positive to do with people who
are working on their intrusive
thoughts.
Jackie: Yeah, and also like this
is more anecdotal than anything
. I feel like there was one
article around but now I'm not
sure I could find it off like
without a bunch of research. But
people seem to be developing
POCD, which is a pedophilia OCD,
where they are consumed with
the fear that they are secretly
a pedophile.
Sgt Spank: Yep, that's a very
real thing. I've seen people
talking about it on TikTok and
I'm sure there are multiple
articles out there about
people's experiences with that,
and a lot of that has become a
very real thing very recently
because of internet culture and
fandom culture and how people
consume their media and how
people are demonized for
consuming their media in a wrong
way.
Jackie: Yeah, because it's not
just about actual underage ships
. It's like from my hero
academia and hawks, like a ship
between two adults that have an
age gap, because it's like 20s
and 40s or something, and people
call that pedophilia, and it's
wild. This man can have a
mortgage.
Sgt Spank: Yeah right, hawks can
have a fucking mortgage and he
can legally drink. This is a
full grown ass man. So what is
the issue? I'm sorry, this is
how old he said. he said 24.
Jackie: I just said he is in his
20s. I think it's early to mid.
Sgt Spank: He's a 20 year old
minor.
Jackie: Yeah, and it's just a
huge issue because partially
because they're not just coming
for actual underage content,
they're coming for short people.
They're coming for people who
just don't look as adult as they
think people should look, or
people who like more girly girl
stuff. It's absolutely insane.
Sgt Spank: It is. It's also kind
of. I got to say that it's a
little transphobic to believe
that small people are there. I
personally know a very petite,
small trans man that often gets
mistaken as a child and I think
it's really shitty to apply the
idea that small bodies equal
child. Yeah, because he's going
to be fully grown ass fucking
adults with again mortgages,
with those to pay, with jobs and
kids even. It would not matter
to these people because they are
small in air quotes and look
like a child.
Jackie: I want to pivot to
another problem with purity
culture. that isn't just about
the kinks and everything.
Absolutely. It's something that
people don't always ascribe to
purity culture because they just
get caught up in the sex stuff
because that's how they are.
That's one of their big problems
. But also purity in consuming
deals with having the correct
thoughts about the media, having
the correct head canons And of
course, i'm going to turn this
into June discourse.
Sgt Spank: Yes, all right,
absolutely, and I have a lot of
thoughts about this, but
continue.
Jackie: And it's not just June
discourse. June is the most
obvious one where it became very
early on, earlier than when
June became air quotes canonized
by Hussie. Yeah, way earlier
than that Did people start
saying if you personally do not
like June Edward as a head canon
, you are a trans misogynist.
Yeah, i personally knew a trans
man who changed his name. His
name used to be John And then
this happened.
Sgt Spank: And then he changed
his name.
Jackie: Yeah, because he did not
want to be associated with John
anymore. It became very toxic
to many trans mask people.
Sgt Spank: Yeah, absolutely. And
they don't care if it's toxic
to trans mask people, they don't
. They don't care if, like you
personally, like really related
to John as a character, they
don't care.
Jackie: They actively made fun
of people who had can and John
as trans mask.
Sgt Spank: Yeah, and it's the
bully thing.
Jackie: Yeah, And we'll get back
to June in a second. But beyond
June there was also. Briscoe
was another big one because of
the Pester quest route, where
the writer at first after came
out when people asked, said I'm
not holding your hand, You make
up your own mind about what I
can. And I stood there Right.
And then of course, what
pumpkins company line is nothing
is canon, You do what you want.
But that's not the truth,
Because the writer after that,
even after saying that the
writer in the fandom around
Vriska said if you don't think
for us because trans femme like
was made canon in Pester quest,
you're a trans misogynist. If
you don't think for us because
it is a lesbian, you're a. You
know, you're a lesbian. So if
you don't like that. We're
changing canonically bisexual
characters to be lesbians.
You're also a lesbian.
Sgt Spank: I just I feel like
it's very strange to apply, like
human gender identity issues
onto an alien race where they
just are, like they choose their
gender regardless, like their
genitals are all the same And
not not that like genitalia has
anything to fucking do with it,
but they are literally a
completely entirely alien race
where gender constructs and shit
, they do not really apply in
the same fucking way. And to to
apply real life issues and real
life identity crisis crisis onto
fictional characters that are
literally fucking aliens is very
strange to me And it's like
okay, yeah, absolutely, that
first could be trans femme.
That's totally fine, that's
wonderful And, honestly, let let
June be trans femme as well.
That's incredible wonderful. But
you also have to understand
that you have to let other
people have their head cannons
and enjoy their Barbie dolls in
the way that they want to enjoy
their Barbie dolls as well. Like
you all have to play nice and
play fucking fair. And just
because you play with your
Barbie doll as a transmask John,
for example, doesn't mean that
you're suddenly a fucking trans
misogynist. Like trans John and
John in general can exist just
as much as June exists. It's a
multi. It's a multi universe
like comic. It's. That's the.
That's one of the biggest things
in the whole comic is it's a
multi universe, multi
dimensional comic where there
are other selves throughout the
comic. So it just makes no sense
to claim trans, misogyny or
lesbophobia when there are
multiple fucking universes with
these characters.
Jackie: I also want to say, if
you cling to canon so much, one
I see has canonically set has
said that all ships are canon to
us He has said that lesbians,
like sexual human sexuality
doesn't quite exist for trolls.
but can? I is a lesbian in the
sense that she has a, that it's
a fetish like having a
preference for blonde hair Right
.
Sgt Spank: And I'm not to
mention the fact that Karkat
himself in the comic looks at
Dave like he's grown two heads
and he's like OK, so like incest
is an issue for y'all of
whatever, but it's obviously not
an issue with trolls. I mean
they, they procreate with an
incestuous slurry like that's
one of the biggest things in
Homestuck and other canon. Like
moments of incest and in
Homestuck is when Cronus and
Eridan go on a date and Dave
openly hitting on Rose and vice
versa, and and Roxy, like it's
just weird to apply purity
culture ideals to a comic. That
is literally just it's all just
garbage ships where everybody is
having a spark with with
everybody. You know what I mean.
Jackie: Yeah, About the Dave
Rose thing. I have a question
because this has been my
something that I always miss
every time I go through and read
. Homestuck is so in act four,
whenever the, whenever John dies
and the time skip happens and
we see Dave and Rose hanging out
before Dave goes back and
becomes Dave Sprite. Right Even
before the Hussie commentary
everyone said, yeah, I can't
believe Dave Rose happened in.
That. That's so cringe. I never
saw that in the text. Am I
missing something in my read
throughs? or was there some
other cultural context around it
.
Sgt Spank: I don't think so, and
here's here's, here's why.
Here's why I don't think so. I
think that everybody is going to
interpret things differently
when they read through stuff.
They're going to interpret,
interpret the, the comic,
differently and no matter what
you do like, everybody's going
to have an experience with, with
the comic And, honestly, it was
made to sort of be that way for
you to come up with your own
conclusions. And I think that,
personally, i love Dave Rose. I
think Dave Rose is great. I
think there's a lot of chemistry
, i think there's a lot of
possible possibilities for hurt
and comfort within that ship And
I think it's a great ship. And
I think that there is can and
evidence that it was definitely
something that was kind of like
touched up on and given to the
audience like oh, they're very
obviously fucking flirting. I
don't, i, i, i hate to say that
I can't remember exactly which
part of the comic you're talking
about, but I can't, i can't
remember exactly that part. But
if people saw like sexual
tension or romantic, romantic
tension and that and that part
of the comic, then cool, i know,
you know I don't see it as
cringe at all. It's, you know,
it's just a comic.
Jackie: It's just funny because,
like everyone talks about it,
like it's a fact that Dave and
Rose got together in the doomed
timeline that Dave Sprite came
from.
Sgt Spank: I think that there
might be some evidence that you
know leads to that being a very
high possibility. But you know,
it all depends on how you read
it, i think. And if people took
Dave Rose as being canon for
that, then hell yeah, that's the
one for me.
Jackie: Yeah, absolutely. Like I
guess that's just what I don't
get is like y'all don't want
this to happen. Where are you
finding the evidence that I
someone who does want it to
happen can't find right Like I'm
the one who should be reading
into this? Absolutely.
Sgt Spank: They want a reason to
bitch, that's all it is. Yeah,
they are miserable and it is a
topic that they can bring up
that is disconnected with
themselves, so they can bitch
about it without you know having
to within themselves as to why
this is such a big issue.
Jackie: Yeah Well, I'm about to
come up on that in my reread
through with Moosey. Oh good,
I'm recording this So I'll
investigate again.
Sgt Spank: Please do And please
tell me what you find.
Jackie: Yeah, I'll tell the
world what I find If I I gotta
talk to Moosey and make sure
it's okay. We haven't talked
about this stuff specifically.
They're chill. It's just like,
just because someone's chill
doesn't mean they want to talk
about it on the podcast.
Sgt Spank: Absolutely, yeah,
understandable.
Jackie: There are just so many
off topics we could get on to
and I could make the whole
episode about that, even just
focusing on Homestuck as a
fandom. There is canon stuff in
Homestuck that people don't, but
it's like just part of
Homestuck. Like, like you said,
the uh impor assess And in the
fandom Strider assessed is the
core part of the Homestuck
fandom. Absolutely, and, despite
an interpretation of one of my
tweets, strider assessed
shippers are the backbone
because everyone is in a state
of fear right now. It's not as
bad as it was in 2019, but if
you're not on not safer work
fandom, or if you're not like in
cool places, like like people
who are pro ship, or either just
don't give a fuck, right, you
are in a state of fear. Yeah, i
know this. I hear from people
who are in that state of fear. I
hear from people who are like
like uh, i have a friend who is
uh kind of sex repulse, so
they're probably not going to
listen to this episode, um and
so like they don't get into any
of this stuff. They don't get
into these conversations because
the whole thing squicks them
out, not from any moral
standpoint, but just because how
it is, and they still are
afraid for like basic ass things
like shipping Karezi and or or
being blocked for being my
friend.
Sgt Spank: Oh my God. Yeah, i
honestly have a few friends that
uh keep being friends with me,
like on the down now, and yeah,
i completely understand, because
I'm definitely a target for a
lot of harassment. They don't
want to have to deal with any of
that shit.
Jackie: Yeah, Let's, let's,
let's go back around. I didn't
uh, let you extrapolate on your
uh, bro, body pillow experience.
Sgt Spank: Well, um, there was
definitely. Uh, it was well
received within the the the the.
Jackie: So back up and explain
the contest and like what, what
contest Okay.
Sgt Spank: So it was uh, it was
like the homestuck two or three
Just for uh, it was, we love
fine at the time, uh or no, no,
four fans by fans came second,
correct.
Jackie: I'm pretty sure I think
so.
Sgt Spank: It was for we love
fine. Um, they were doing a
homestuck contest as they did
like before, and I always wanted
a first straight or doggie,
like I thought it would be
hilarious. You know that it
would be an incredible joke And
the you know the staff seemed to
agree when I um sent in my
entry. I worked like 24 hours on
that thing and God I wish it
could redraw it. So bad. They
loved it. It was super well
received, right. And then I want
, like I was the staff pick,
they chose me for the contest. I
still have like screenshots of
the like photo op thing they did
with the body pillows, the
aeridine pillow one as well.
Jackie: Oh, my God.
Sgt Spank: It was wonderful.
Jackie: I might need that
picture. I might see if that
picture would make a good
episode picture.
Sgt Spank: I will absolutely
send it to you because I still
have it. But it was. It was
honestly life changing for me at
the time because I'd never like
successfully done anything like
that before, i'd never won a
contest outside of like
elementary school, and my art
was like finally getting out
there to a large audience and it
life changing for me. But with
that came the downward spiral of
people who hated my content
coming after me and coming after
my career. One of the big
homestuck blogs at the time like
had a lot to say about the body
pillow on their on their blog
And it got to a point where,
like, i won another contest, the
next one with an Alphabrow body
pillow. Oh yeah, it wasn't up
there for long, but it was up
there And I you know that also
garnered me a lot of negative
attention And it was for
Alphabrow. Yeah, well, it's
because they knew okay that I
was a Strider Suss shipper that
created a lot of Strider Suss
content And there there was what
really just like broke the
camel's back for these people
that just really hated my guts
for no other reason than the
fact that I was a Strider Suss
shipper and I was being
successful at getting my things
up on Wheel of Fine, was posting
my Dave Sprite and Little Howl
prints on Wheel of Fine to be
sold as a as a mouse pad and a
like a like a poster right, like
a poster print. This person
specifically went on to the
comments of my products on Wheel
of Fine and proceeded to link
my Not Safe for Work art Jesus.
Jackie: Christ.
Sgt Spank: On Wheel of Fine And
like I had multiple people, like
their little lackeys, coming in
and just dogging on my art and
shitting all over it, for for me
, being a Strider Suss shipper
and I don't think I sold more
than 10- of them as a result,
because they actively went into
my shop page to make sure that
everybody knew what kind of
adult like fictional content I
created And they were super
happy about that. I'm sure You
know me, a disabled trans man
not being able to make money any
other way. I'm sure they were
really proud of themselves for
that one And and shit like that
just continued. Like there were,
there were people that were
friends with that person, that
would repost my prints and talk
to their, their followers, about
how ugly my art is and air
quotes. Yeah, i've experienced
insane things from from Antis
and like big name Antis too.
There are a bunch of artists
that created actually a group of
people on Discord to shit talk
me like that was their their
favorite thing to do when I won
the contests. Yeah, i mean, i
don't know about you, but I've,
i've, like I've received death
threats, suey baiting shit and
people wishing death on my cat
over these cartoon characters.
Jackie: And I know I should care
more about like a human death,
but going after your cat is just
a low blow.
Sgt Spank: It's my and my cat
was sick. at the time I had a
like a go fund me or donation
thing going for my cat, emraus,
because he was very, very, very
fucking sick. Yeah And yeah they
. they look at that picture of
my orange bastard son and they
decided you know what, while you
ship incest, so I hope he dies
And that's like look. this
person in particular, i have to
tell you, was a creepypasta fan.
Jackie: Oh my God, Don't you
know that creepypastas led
people to murder someone? So
it's it's.
Sgt Spank: it's beyond me how
these people like can consume
content about, like you know,
slashers and shit like that And
they're fine. It's okay for them
to consume that media or create
that media, but the moment it
becomes sexual, oh, clutch your
pearls. It's the same
puritanical, fucking right wing,
conservative, catholic,
christian Baptist ideology that
being gay and queer sex is bad
and evil wrong.
Jackie: Yeah, laughing at people
dying is okay. Getting off to
people dying is wrong.
Sgt Spank: Yeah, it really is.
Just it's backwards. It's truly
backwards And it's it's
subscribed to the same. It's,
first of all, it's subscribed to
Turf rhetoric 100 fucking
percent. And it also subscribes
to fucking transphobia and queer
phobia in general. Like how
dare queer people have been
policed on experiencing things
in a queer way for fucking ever?
Like we've been demonized for
experiencing queer content for
forever, and unless that queer
content is 100% fucking
wholesome, we're getting the
same shit now, shit that we
should have left behind years
ago. And it's within our own
community as well, where we are
being ostracized from people
near being demonized for
consuming problematic media, and
it's very sad. People are
losing their careers. A girl was
fed a needle.
Jackie: Oh yeah, Do you?
Sgt Spank: remember that.
Jackie: Yeah, i. I don't think I
was around when that happened,
but I've heard. I've heard
stories of it by now.
Sgt Spank: I saw somebody bless,
bless their heart. They were
content creator on on Twitter. I
forget what they worked on, but
they dealt with some hate as
well And somebody told her that
she deserved her cancer. Jesus
Christ, and I think it was over
she, i think it was over her
shipping she. They said that she
deserved her cancer for that.
Jackie: I'm sorry she has so
much chemistry. If you don't,
you don't have to like it, But
if you don't see it, you're
you're a crazy person.
Sgt Spank: Like it's and it's.
I'm not super like big into
Voltron. I did make a passive,
aggressive art piece of trans.
She, both of them. Yeah, just to
piss people off for fun.
Jackie: Yeah, I only watched the
first two or three seasons and
then I just forgot to keep up
with it. Yeah, Yeah, Just like.
Oh yeah, chief, obviously Yeah
absolutely.
Sgt Spank: But yeah, i've, i've.
I don't know about you, but
I've experienced, i have. I
honestly have screenshots of the
two. Just crazy amounts of anti
hate, and it all started with
body pillow. Yeah which fuck it.
I mean I'm making mouse pads
and standies and shit to now
like cry about it. I guess.
Jackie: Yeah, i I've definitely
received hate, but, like, what
gets me the most is when it
comes from people I used to be
friends with. Right, i had and
this is also I want to touch on
posting not safe for work in
places. That is a boundary where
you should not be posting not
safe for work. Yeah, that is an
issue And I had something
similar to that happen where I
got into an argument with one of
my ex friends. If I get deeper
into it, it's going to it's
going to be super obvious what
happened And it's not super
relevant. But the point is I
made them that on Twitter
because of shit I said, because
they made me mad, And we got
into the DMs and they said, hey,
i saw this post you made like,
and it had to been like a year
prior, right, and I didn't like
it And I can't believe you said
this And they shared the post
with me and it was I. I swear.
Also it was on my not safe for
work Twitter and not on my main,
and at the time I was trying to
keep that, that hidden, because
I was did not want to integrate
my not safe for work,
problematic shit into my main
shit. Yet, yeah, and now I just
keep them separate because I
don't want to police minors
finding it from my main. And it
was some rose doc scratch thing
I said. And, ok, they said to me
one. I, for context, i was in
partial hospitalization for a
month after all the drama of
2019, 2020, 2020 happened after
I was harassed and publicly
humiliated and publicly yeah,
that, like all that, it took me
a while to process and I also
had other stressful stuff going
on at the time And it just
culminated Or baited.
Sgt Spank: By the way, i'm going
to say that for the fucking
podcast that I, whatever read
the transcript. That's what we
call baiting.
Jackie: Yeah, i'm not sure I've
like fully talked about that on
the podcast. I'll have to
actually do a episode about that
at some time, because I was
trying to ignore it and
pretended it didn't happen And I
shoved it down so much that it
didn't pop up until fucking like
June, like the summer of 2020.
So, like this person I think was
still friends with me or had
been friends with me and we
weren't like hostile at each
other at this point when I was
in partial hospitalization, and
so they come to me like a year
later, like a year after they
found this one not safe for work
tweet I had and said if you
tell your therapist about it,
she's going to lock you back up.
Wow, to be clear, i wasn't even
in the hospital. It was COVID,
it was partial hospitalization,
which meant for most of a day I
was in zoom calls Gotcha And she
said I hope you don't have any
children ever. I hope you don't
have any siblings. Oh my God,
yeah, and I do have a brother,
by the way. And then they shared
that post. I don't know if they
shared the full content of it
or what, but they deemed one of
our mutual friends about it the
sex repulsed friend I mentioned
earlier to like warn them about
me. Okay, like they broke a
boundary I had with that person
because I know they are sex
repulsed or, the very least, sex
averse And so like we don't
talk about that stuff. I know
they don't like the stuff I'm
into, so we don't talk about it
because that's a normal, healthy
thing. Yeah, it is sexually.
And they broke that boundary on
both of our ends because I
guarantee you they didn't ask
before sharing it.
Sgt Spank: Oh yeah, probably not
. They tend not to.
Jackie: And my friend came to me
and said this is what was told
to me And I said Yeah, like it's
some fictional stuff I'm into
And they're like cool. I trust
you to be a good person. Like
basically right. Like I trust
that you are not like a bad
person IRL I don't personally
get it, it squeaks me out to
hell and back But I trust you.
Sgt Spank: Right, because I mean
it's, it's fictional, like
you're not hurting anybody.
Jackie: You know what I mean And
you know that that person who
had it didn't really care about
it, or else it wouldn't have
taken them an entire year to
bring it out. Unfortunately,
that person is also big in
fandom, especially like fandom
creation spaces. So this is a
reason why I think my bringing
on creators to talk about their
creations is a big deal, because
I don't want, because I feel
like the current spaces for
creators in the fandom are very
you. You have to be either in
certain groups or explicitly not
in certain groups. Yeah, it's
clicky.
Sgt Spank: It's. You have to be
like this pure, like wholesome
person in order to like fit the
bill for these people. You have
to be a part of their little
cults in order to participate in
certain things And and God
forbid you are wholesome and
pure and you just don't want to
talk to one of the big creators
anymore And they throw a whole
ass fucking fit about it and ban
you from anything to do with
the big events and in Homestuck,
like, you can literally breathe
wrong And these people will ban
you from participating in
fandom group things. It's, it's
really just, it's insane.
Jackie: So one of the reasons
why I haven't even tried to
participate in any sort of like
group project for Homestuck
because I already know these
people hate my guts and that's
fine It sucks for me, because
the reason not that it doesn't
suck for you, but like so the
reason I started making friends
in the Homestuck community in
2019 was because I joined a
voice acting project, ended up
not getting anywhere because not
everyone's made out to be a
project manager, but, but I made
all my friends, some of who are
still friends with me. I made
some more after it, but, like I
made the majority of my friends,
i got into the Homestuck
community because I got cast in
a, a Friendsome voice acting
project. That is awesome Yeah,
and it was. It was a lot of fun
And I continue to get into other
voice acting projects. I and I
still like to do a lot of stuff
like that. There's actually a
podcast that's currently offline
But I'm going to start
uploading to. Mine is the doomed
timelines which my friend made,
where we got voice actors
together to read Homestuck
fanfic to like I love that? Yeah
, it's I. It is unfortunately
offline right now, but I'm
trying to get it back up because
it was a fun project. And I
miss being in Homestuck projects
. Right, like I miss submitting
to scenes, i miss being in voice
acting stuff And I also miss
the culture where, like, just
anyone could be part of a
project. Yeah, like I was a
nobody whenever I got cast in
the voice acting project. Like I
like had literally been on the
Twitter for like a month And
then I saw the audition and I
put my stuff in and I got it
Right. Hell, yeah, and it it
sucks. Yeah, that it's so clicky
that you have to know the right
people, that you have to say
the right things.
Sgt Spank: It's all about
publicity and just being like
the perfect little fandom robot
in order for people to enjoy you
as a person. It's very
dehumanizing, honestly, and it
sucks because there are
wonderful creators in this
fandom I mean like incredible
creators in this fandom that
have been ostracized from big
homesick projects because they
drew Borostreiter holding Dave's
hand once, or Gamzee kissing
Terezi or Amporo Sess like they
have been ostracized. It really
is just. You know, it's sad.
These people are so talented,
they're wonderful people and
that's the funny thing about it
is like. All the people who are
denying people a platform in
these fandom spaces are terrible
. They are so fucking mean and
their their favorite thing is
just bullying the shit out of
people and talking shit about
them, attempting to hurt feeling
, shitting on their art Like
it's their favorite fucking
thing, right, but these people
that you know create this
problematic content are the
nicest, most welcoming people
that I have ever fucking met
Like and I feel so safe with,
with these creators, and it's
just a pity that people don't
get to experience that. They
don't get to experience the oh,
we just love this thing and it's
not about like the ships that
we hate, it's not about making
everything pure and just going
for brawny points from
representation etc. Etc. Etc.
Like it's about just creating
with people that you care about,
which was what Homestuck was
always about and like creating
and enjoying the fandom in your
way with other people. I miss
the days of Homestuck, like
get-togethers at malls and shit.
I miss that.
Jackie: I miss. I'm sad I wasn't
around for this like. So here's
the thing I was around. I
started reading in like
2011-2012. I started reading
before the Kickstarter because I
backed the Kickstarter. I just
was reading a thousand and one
webcomics and I was in a fandom
for none of them and I just did
not make an exception for
Homestuck. I just did not look
up Homestuck people really.
Sgt Spank: That's fair.
Jackie: Just didn't get in
fandom and it's. It's just very
funny. I'm like this is a
webcomic. I'm not in a
questionable content fandom like
. So I was there and I just
missed out on a whole lot.
Sgt Spank: That's. It was
wonderful. I can honestly tell
you that the experiences I had
early on during Stuck's Big Boom
were phenomenal. I was in
Houston Stuck for a while
because that's where I'm from in
Houston and I would go to the
meetups, the Homestuck meetups
at the malls and they were
wonderful, like people would
bring food and their sketchbooks
and they would cosplay and I
went to. It was wonderful. There
was a Homestuck prom. I had
never been to prom before. I had
never been to prom before. I'm
a high school dropout. I just I
could not handle high school so
I dropped and you know severe
bully was the main reason I
dropped. That Never got to go to
prom. So I got to go to a
Homestuck prom with with one of
my partners and everybody
cosplayed. You know I was, i was
Tavros for it and my partner
was Gamtafe. This was back when
I was like like oh gee, sergeant
Spank era where I just drew a
lot of Gamtafe Fantastic Before
I came out as trans actually
Homestuck, indeed did trans my
gender, nice. But I went to prom
and there were so many
wonderful people there. Like I
had never felt like so happy to
be around a bunch of weird nerds
that love the same thing as me.
It was wonderful, like the, the
413 parties where everyone
would bake a cake and you know
binge watch shitty fucking
movies, conair, you know little
monster. Like it was wonderful
and I miss those days and I wish
we could go back to truly,
because that's what Homestuck
was all fucking about. It was
like a about community and just
having fucking fun with people.
It wasn't about well, you have
to be commercially like,
palatable to other people and
you can't do anything wrong ever
or enjoy anything bad ever, or
you're gonna make a slick bad.
Therefore, you are bad like it
wasn't like that.
Jackie: Yeah, strider says
shippers are the canary in the
fucking coal mine. If you can't
have, strider says shippers out
on normie Homestuck Twitter or
Homestuck Tumblr or wherever you
don't have a good fandom. It
was top ten. Yeah, it was
literally top ten ships. One of
my friends in a server said that
they saw a bro and a dave like
make out at like Seattle Pride.
Sgt Spank: Oh yeah, oh yeah,
like it was everywhere, it was
so common and and of course,
this was before, when there was
like fan and bro, like people
were really like they didn't
know as much as they do now
about bro, but it doesn't
fucking matter and I will spend
hours explaining, obviously not
on here and not on this episode,
but I could spend hours
explaining my thoughts on
burstrider and once shit came
out about him in the comic, like
people were, just like you know
, fuck burstrider, he's the
worst. Blah, blah, blah. And
yeah, everything felt a shit and
anybody who created there were
wonderful fucking artists that
just left, left the fandom
because of all of the drama and
all of the like, hatred and
vitriol.
Jackie: It's, it's terrible,
yeah me saying, bro, kicking
dave down the stairs was like
like just the bro day fight was
like funny, as it was meant to
be, was the start of me losing
one of my friends because, like
I mean, it was supposed to be
funny.
Sgt Spank: Supposed to be funny,
that's the joke. He's a fucking
fake white boy fucking
literally teaching a kid the way
of the samurai. That's what's
funny about it. He's teaching a
child the way of the samurai.
Why do you think he's doing this
shit that he's doing?
Jackie: like people honestly
will bring up. Bro hit Dave so
hard with his sword that Dave's
the record on Dave's shirt broke
and I'm like that's not an
injury, that's not a real thing.
That happens to people. That's
fucking Wiley Coyote painting a
fucking hole on the side of a
giant and then a train coming
out of it. Yeah, that's not an
injury.
Sgt Spank: He did not hit his
brother so hard that his record
broke as like that's not a real
thing it's ever the thing about
Homestuck is even the serious
parts, even the parts that
fucking hurt, even the parts
that, like, rip your soul out of
your body because they are so
sad, they are still meant to
have some semblance of fucking
humor. It is still supposed to
be funny.
Jackie: Yeah, oh, another.
Another thing that was funny
explicitly meant to be funny,
but was also a step in me losing
that friendship was when Friska
is looking at the cue ball, at
like asking about the future,
and it's like I'm about to blow
up in your face. And then the
next scene is it blows up in her
face. Yeah, that's fucking
hilarious, hilarious. Or risk of
being hit with her own arm
because Ekri is still has
control. Yeah, that's fucking
funny.
Sgt Spank: It's funny like the
whole thing is supposed to be.
One awful and morbid and two
funny yeah just like cartoons
yes, because they guess what
they're fucking cartoons and
risk is a great character. I do
enjoy Friska as a character.
Jackie: I love risk is so much.
Sgt Spank: I think risk is a
phenomenal example of a very
flawed and also very deep and
in-depth character, but the
fandom definitely likes to play
favorites over who is more
problematic and they definitely
choose Vriska as one of the
characters that is like, oh, she
can do, brisket did nothing
wrong, but they will shit other
characters, like unbashedly,
just not care about these other
characters and it's so backwards
.
Jackie: I just, whenever someone
makes me feeling just about
brisket because they're being
too loud about loving her, i
just make up more head canons
that they would hate.
Sgt Spank: Oh for brisket, like
transmask brisket, yeah ooh,
listen, risk is hot in every
form, every form brisket's hot
in every form. But I am also a
gay man so I have to say that I
would thoroughly enjoy a
transmask. Brisket, trans femme
brisket is great. Honestly,
transing any of the characters
genders is phenomenal and home
stuck. I personally had canon
Dave Strider as a trans man and
have for years. But also, if
people want to turn Dave into
dove, then fucking go for it.
Hell yeah, they are fucking
Barbie dolls. Please play with
them the way that you want to.
Jackie: Absolutely Okay. there
was something else I was going
to talk about when we talked
about your shit. Oh yeah, like
we kind of we touched on this
definitely with, like talking
about the clicks and stuff for
fandom, the very much like this
person did something wrong, so
you have to unfollow them. And
oh, this person still follows
them, so you have to unfollow
them. And it's just like
spreading out ripples of like so
far away from the original
person who was quote, unquote.
bad that, like you just have
like a whole chain of people you
have to unfollow because
they're not unfollowing based on
dumb shit.
Sgt Spank: Yeah, it's a toxic
game of telephone. Yeah, i've
definitely been one of those
people that's like don't follow
Sergeant Spank because of X, y
and Z.
Jackie: Oh, i had someone
somehow had been following me
for months after I like
definitely was out as like pro
ship on my verification account,
who started adding people and
being like hey, uh, uh,
jerkification is pro ship, are
you aware of that? you're
following them. What was
hilarious, you know, getting rid
of that. I did have mutuals
block me after that. What was
hilarious is they did at my
podcast account where I have
verification in the bio as like,
this is the person who runs it,
right. But they did at my
podcast being like hey, you
follow verification, they're pro
ship, by the way. And I was
like hi, that's me, that's me.
Yeah, yes, i'm gonna unfollow
myself.
Sgt Spank: It's very weird
because people like to take pro
ship and pro fiction and they
really like to bend what that
actually means to fit their
narrative.
Jackie: Yeah, what.
Sgt Spank: I mean, like I am
very much. what I say is, I am
very much pro leaving people the
fuck alone over because people
think that pro ship and pro
thick are just like, yeah, pro
pedophilia, pro Zufilia And it's
like that's. that's not how it
works. Just because you watch
scream doesn't mean that you're
going to put on a fucking
Halloween mask and start killing
teenagers. Like it does not
fucking work like that. And
people apply different logic to
things that are sexual All the
fucking time. I cannot believe
somebody was like you should
unfollow this person and it was
you. I would lose my mind. I
would lose my mind, i would
absolutely go crazy.
Jackie: I took a screenshot of
my bio and circled my my name in
the bio saying like yeah, this
is me. This is me. You did a bad
job.
Sgt Spank: I'm trying to find
the one where this person was
like oh, you shouldn't follow a
sergeant spank because he's a.
He's a trans. Oh my God. And I
was called a trans folk for
drawing trans Dave as a trans
man. Yes, that is the most thing
you can do.
Jackie: My favorite thing was
dirtification the account that I
was called a June skeptic, on
the account that people accuse
me of trans misogyny for not
even openly disliking June, but
just not liking the culture
around June, and making some
mild posts about it and getting
into argument with one trans
person. Shinigami eyes lists me
as green. Are you aware of
Shinigami eyes?
Sgt Spank: Shinigami eyes.
Jackie: So it's an extension
that will list some people as
green if they are confirmed to
be cool with trans people and
will list people as red if they
are confirmed trans folks. Okay,
so it's really handy to just
like discount someone's argument
out of hand is like, hey, i
don't know if this person like
maybe is saying something they
don't realize is bad or what,
and then they're they're like a
red in Shinigami eyes and like,
oh no, they're just this is a
thing for them. Is they just go
around and make like statements
to get you to debate you into
arguments, right, right, but my
certification account is listed
as green, so when people see it
they will see a trans ally and
I'm so happy about it That's
wonderful.
Sgt Spank: I could not tell you.
That is the same for for me,
because I draw Dave, bro, you
know yeah, but you're not.
Jackie: You're not on there as
either red or green, which is
how most people are, oh, but
like I don't think the person
listens to fandom drama reasons,
i think you'd have to actually
show like proof of actual
transphobia.
Sgt Spank: I see, i see, i see.
Jackie: Sometimes I'll just go
through my followers and see if
anyone pops up as red or if I'm
seeing discourse going around.
But a lot of them who are
starting it feels baby and
they're all red and just like
block, block, block.
Sgt Spank: Well, I mean, as is
your God given right?
Jackie: So many people. I have
such a hard time on my main
Twitter, like my main home stuck
Twitter, because I've blocked
so many people that I'm like I
need to find more home stuck
people. But it's very hard. Yeah
there's fear involved. Yeah,
there's fear involved And it's
just like I blocked a lot of the
main people I don't know if
they're still main people and I
never will because I blocked
them and they blocked me. It was
a mutual blocking by almost
every BNF at the time. Oh yeah,
so I didn't talk about virtue
signaling a little bit. I never
really thought about it too much
until I was on the home, stuck
Reddit, and I get I don't like
scroll through there often, i
just get I just let Reddit send
me notifications and sometimes
it was like this person made
some fan art and like, oh cool,
like the fan art, maybe say
something nice about it, right,
and people started doing these,
these shipped here lists, and
this one was notable because
some of the ones included were
like Dave bro and John bro and
stuff like that. Okay, it's a
weird ship here list, because I
went to do it and they didn't
have like Airden and Vriska as a
ship. They didn't, or they did,
they did not. And I'm like you
have to at least pair all the
trolls together. I love that
shit. That's such a good shit,
exactly, and it's like canon in
the comic, like why don't you
have this one? but you have like
, like you have bro dad And
honestly like oh, yes, which
yeah, not shitting on, bro. Dad
is just like but you have like
something that that is like
crack ship adjacent, but you
don't have a cannon ship on.
It's a really weird chip tier
list.
Sgt Spank: Well, people don't
like to acknowledge that Airden
and Vriska had a lot of
chemistry and that they like
roleplay together and shit.
Jackie: But you have bro on it.
Sgt Spank: I know it's backwards
.
Jackie: Like that's, that's my
thing is like I would get it if
they were ignoring all all ships
deemed problematic, but they
weren't.
Sgt Spank: Not at all. Dave bro
is like tops here, like the most
problematic ship in the band.
Jackie: So anyway, but people
were posting those. One person
posted it and had John Jade at
the top or like near the top,
and people were big mad about it
. Why? Because it's John Jade.
Sgt Spank: But there's chemistry
I don't understand like.
Jackie: But yeah, and didn't
have a lot of like because this
this person organized it into
quadrants And so put a lot of
wallower ships into pale
quadrants. Okay, and got mad
about that, because people will
both simultaneously say pale is
romantic. So I can't believe you
put Karkat Kanaya in the pale
and also say I can't believe you
put Rosemary in in pale.
they're canonically flush. And
he was like this is my, this is
my thing, this is what I
personally these are my Barbie
dolls. Like I can't believe you
have a John Jade in in flush and
you hate Rosemary. Try to be
like you're just a lesbaphobe,
you just hate gay people and
it's like first verse. First
verse, he was also at the top.
What do you want? But in what I
was in response to this was
someone use that ship tier list
again. But just had a tier one.
Just had a tier list at the
bottom that was labeled as
incest, pedophilic or something
else like otherwise problematic.
What? Yeah, like they included
a tier at the bottom for the
incest pedo ships so they could
put, like you know, john Jade
and bro John and all of that
down there. Wait, okay.
Sgt Spank: And what. What is
inherently like so awfully
disgusting about John Jade
besides the fact that it was
fucking incest, because this is
something that I've talked to
with with friends. With those
friends, Incest is one of the
most basic bitch baby fucking
like vanilla problematic kinks
that there are. Really truly
fucking is. But people and
people love to lump pedophilia
and incest together very, very
often And it's it's just wild to
me that this is what they are
hung up on when there is canon
incest in the.
Jackie: Yeah, yeah, no, it's,
it's an issue. So and my thing
was you don't have to put those
ships on there, like the tier
list maker does not make you put
everything on the tier list. So
this was my like oh, you're
just actively virtue signaling,
you're just saying, literally,
ships I don't like and think are
bad, they're gross and icky,
and so I'm putting them on here.
So you know that I think
they're gross and icky.
Sgt Spank: And I'm a better
person because I think they're
gross and icky. Yeah, that's
literally it. That's what they
do Like.
Jackie: I would have had less of
a problem if it was just like
an A through F and then on F
they just had all the ships they
don't like and think are gross
and icky, like that's fine,
that's what it's for. But to
specifically say I think this is
pedophilia. Here's the ship. I
think it's pedophilia.
Sgt Spank: They claim that any
like guardian with the kid, one
of the better kids or the alpha
kids, incest and the phantom is
automatically pedophilic,
despite them being, like, grown
as adults And I was actually. I
saved a few screenshots and on
articles about these issues and
virtue signaling is something
that they do and it's harmful
because they will put in reports
. For you know, cartoon lowly,
show bullshit, right, yeah, and
there's, there's like an entire
article on IWF, which is the
Internet Watch Foundation, and
it says thousands of images and
videos of child sexual abuse
could be going undetected
because of false reports. And it
is virtue signaling. It's like
look at this, look, look at
these bad, awful, nasty people,
and it's actively harming.
Jackie: Yeah, because they have
to wade through cartoons.
Sgt Spank: Yep, this says. In
May 2019, the UK's independent
inquiry into child sexual abuse
heard that reports received by
the National Crime Authority
from the United States hotline
in CMEC included large numbers
of non actionable images,
including cartoons, along with
personally identifiable
information of those responsible
for uploading them. According
to Swiss police, up to 90
percent of the reports received
from NCMEC related to innocent
images Like.
Jackie: Yeah, like that is an
actual, like moral, real world,
ethical effects, people issue.
Sgt Spank: It is, but they don't
care once it affects real
people.
Jackie: Yeah, And they just they
have to. it's like putting like
the stuff in in their like
freaks D and I like that's
virtue signaling. No one knows
what that means Like okay.
Sgt Spank: So sorry that you're
bland and boring. Yeah right,
Like okay, i will not interact.
You have a shitty attitude. Why
would I want to?
Jackie: Okay, especially queer
people, even those who are
unrelated to fandom, especially
those who are unrelated to
fandom, will see freaks D and I
and it's like oh, that's about
me, though, even if, like the
person putting it in their D and
I do not consider that there's
just a lot of sex negativity.
There's a lot of purity around.
another topic we haven't even
fucking touched on, but
oppression Olympics.
Sgt Spank: Yes.
Jackie: Oh my God. Someone on
Tumblr posted how, like you guys
laugh at the Overwatch
oppression chart. But that's how
you guys work, yeah, so like
they rack up the points based on
like their own Overwatch
oppression chart and decide who
is the most oppressed, and that
person is correct. It doesn't
even have to be about something
that affects them, but they're
just automatically the most
correct about whatever it is,
unless, of course, they're
disagreeing with the person
talking about it, in which case
they're like a pick me or
poisoned or something.
Sgt Spank: God what I can say
about the oppression Olympics,
what my personal experience with
that is. there was a point in
time during all this anti
discourse where people were like
, ok, you're allowed to create
these things If you openly tell
people what you've been through
you're exactly like give me your
life story And then I will
decide whether or not you are
allowed to draw or consume this
certain type of media. And a lot
of people ended up I,
technically, was one of them
Coming out about you know,
things that had happened to them
and like had to express like,
oh well, i'm enjoying this shit
because it helps me cope with
certain trauma, which is
completely backed up by
therapists. There are so many
fucking therapists out there
that have very openly stated
that engaging in problematic
media can be helpful for people
who are traumatized. Right Yeah,
but it went from that like they
kept changing the goalposts,
right, like. So it went from
like OK, you're allowed to enjoy
this type of fiction. If you've
been through this to well, you
still shouldn't create it
anyways. And if you, if you do
create this thing, then
obviously you liked what
happened to you, like terrible,
awful things to say to survivors
. And then it became oh well,
i've been through this and
people like you creating this
certain kind of content is the
reason why this shit happened to
me. Do you know what I mean?
Like I've, i've literally been
told that I'm the reason that
somebody was sexually assaulted
by a family member because of
the things that I draw and the
things that I create, and it
really is just. I've had it
worse than you and fuck you for
creating this content and I'm
better than you because I have
been through worse than. I'm
just sick of it. You know what I
mean.
Jackie: Yeah, it's absolutely
fucked up. You know, sometimes
you'll sit down and do the
research for one of these people
because they say they want the
research and you'll do it and
they don't want the research.
Sgt Spank: Yeah.
Jackie: No, because they don't.
I've talked to my therapist,
like it came up, because I'm
like yeah, this person's, i'm
being harassed by this person,
are these people? they're like
why are they harassing you? and
I explain and they're like but
that's fine, what you're doing
is fine.
Sgt Spank: Yeah, like therapists
are legally required to put you
the fuck away if they believe
that's something that you are
doing is wrong and evil. And
like they are legally required
to report to authorities if
you're doing something fucking
illegal and dangerous. They have
to, yeah they have to. It is a
part of their fucking job And it
doesn't matter to these people
because they're afraid. They're
afraid that if they agree with
this logic, that they will lose
whole, entire friend groups.
They are afraid that if they
actually start to believe these
people that are like they're
just cartoons, nobody's getting
hurt, that they will be
demonized and ostracized as well
.
Jackie: And it sucks because
nine times out of 10, they're
right. I lost my whole entire
friend group, partially because
of the June drama and everything
that happened around that.
Sgt Spank: Why I just don't. I
can't understand that the blow
up.
Jackie: What from one friend
group that imploded on me was
when I said no, i like John, is
John not as June. And that ended
that whole friend group for me.
Sgt Spank: That's I mean. But
there's multiple universes.
They're allowed to love June and
you're allowed to love John,
Like, yeah it's, there are
multiple fucking universes in
which you can enjoy a certain
character, Cause I like June too
. I also like Transmask John.
The fucking options are infinite
, Absolutely Infinite.
Jackie: That's what makes it
great. But yeah, so I lost
friends for that. And then I
also lost friends when I started
posting more like pro-ship
adjacent view And then I started
just telling people like, hey,
I'm about to be problematic on
main, you're probably going to
get targeted if you stay friends
with me, so I'm letting you
know now.
Sgt Spank: That's awful. I am so
sorry. You should not have to
warn your friends that you're
going to be talking about
fictional characters and it's
going to be like heavy And like.
Your friends shouldn't be
afraid of that. But it makes no
sense.
Jackie: Yeah, and like I was
going through a whole lot, i was
not in a good headspace, so
it's stuff. It's an era. I
probably would have done
different now, right, but I did
have some friends drop. I had
some friends stick around and
then I had some friends drop
later when they realized oh no,
you were serious. You are
causing conflict with other
people, i know because you're
doing your own thing over there.
Sgt Spank: Why is there conflict
to be had, is my question.
Jackie: Like it's all dumb shit.
And then I've had people who
have had people block them and
they still stick around me And I
definitely appreciate that.
Like That's wonderful. Yeah, it
just sucks because some people
are becoming disillusioned in
the rest of everyone Because,
like I tried to keep my shit to
myself, right, i don't want to
go. Hey, i know your friends
with all these people. Well,
they were kind of shitty to me.
I think you should, like I don't
want to like try to please
people's friendships because,
like a lot of times is, they
were ex-friends that I was
friends with And I'm like maybe
it was just a me problem And
then I'm just watching other
people slowly realize that oh no
, they are being shitty about
things And that sucks. Like you
have, like I became
disillusioned with some of my
friends and some of Wampumkin
people who I did get targeted
specifically by And it's just
wild Like for having the wrong
opinions. And again, initially
my wrong opinions weren't even
in the problematic fiction era.
It was a different type of
purity culture that just doesn't
get talked about enough. It was
just you don't have the right
head canons And I'm like, wow,
yeah, i've definitely
experienced that too.
Sgt Spank: People don't like the
way I draw striders, which is
fine, That's fine. And I've been
, you know, shut on for head
canning, head canning my
striders the way that I do, and
it's like here's the thing. I
draw these characters a lot of
the time. I kind of put a little
bit of myself. This is gonna
sound crazy, but I kind of put a
little bit of myself into their
experiences because I relate
very heavily with Dave Strider
as a character. I grew up in
fucking Houston like poor broke
a shit with not great fucking
parents And I just I latched
onto this character very fucking
heavily because I understand I
draw these characters like me to
some degree because I relate to
them so heavily and people hate
that shit.
Jackie: They will hate that shit
, but yeah sorry, i remember the
point I was trying to make
before and then I ended it at. I
ended up forgetting what point
I was going at. Oh, go for it
yeah, But yeah so the point is
is like yes, you are most likely
gonna lose friend groups if you
come out as like pro ship, if
you like, post pro ship stuff if
you like, or anti harassment.
Yeah anti harassment. If you
stop caring, if you don't like,
buy in to blocking everyone who
is friends with people. who are
friends with people, right,
right, but like.
Sgt Spank: Yeah, but they're not
worth it.
Jackie: Yeah, they're not worth
it. You're gonna find so many
better friends on the other end,
not that everyone on this side
is like great, there's shitty
people here, there's abusers
here. There always is. Every
part of every community is going
to have the worst of the worst.
Sgt Spank: Yeah, just like
they're convicted fucking
pedophiles in the anti movement.
It just is what it is, Yeah
convicted pedophiles.
Jackie: convicted Okay, i will
say I prefer saying convicted
sexual abusers, because not all
sexual abusers are pedophiles
and often they aren't. Oh yeah.
Sgt Spank: So that's just. There
have been a few pedophiles
caught in the fandom, though,
for sure.
Jackie: Yeah, but like child
sexual abusers, i just like to
like say that as the term,
because like Absolutely. Stuff
I'm not gonna get into on this
episode. It's a whole other
episode. That's another episode
that I want research to back me
up on.
Sgt Spank: That's fine, totally
understandable.
Jackie: But as far as like
conviction stuff goes But yeah,
like convicted, Like no I do
remember one person saying, yes,
I did rape my sister or my
stepsister, or like some person,
but at least I'm not pro-ship.
Sgt Spank: Yeah, I do remember
that And he was, I think he. I'm
gonna say he.
Jackie: I think it was a he-team
, maybe.
Sgt Spank: I do remember that. I
do remember him admitting that
and people just like sucking his
fucking ass and like, oh, it's
okay. I also saw somebody that
was like quoting a
anti-harassment individual, like
a pro-fiction individual. They
were quoting them like you don't
care about real people more
than you care about fictional
characters, and they were like,
yeah, that's the whole point,
absolutely. They're like so
close to getting the fucking
point. Yeah, so close to fucking
understanding and missing the
mark every single fucking time.
Jackie: It reminds me of the one
post someone made where it's
like they just green-shotted
something a Republican said Like
the thing about Democrats is
that they would save a person
over the Statue of Liberty. Like
they think people are more
important than like I don't know
, just like some shit like that,
where it's like yes, of course.
It's like yes, yes, they are.
Sgt Spank: Yeah, like oh, you
think people deserve housing and
deserve to be able to fucking
eat and live comfortably and be
able to pay their rent with
their fucking paycheck, with one
fucking paycheck, just be able
to pay their full fucking rent.
Yes, yes, i do. I believe that
minimum wage fucking workers
believe or deserve to be able to
feed themselves and pay for
their fucking rent. Why is this
so hard for you to grasp?
Jackie: It's just so funny that
like it's those conservatives
putting cultural significant
things over individual people.
Sgt Spank: And anti-seize? the
same shit, exactly Well,
anti-seize tend to, you know,
subscribe with the same ideals
that conservatives have all the
time.
Jackie: But they just like put
it in some sort of progressive
sounding language, which is what
fucking got me. Fucking got me
for a while.
Sgt Spank: You've grown as a
person, and that's a beautiful
thing.
Jackie: Yeah, you just grow and
you self-reflect and you change.
I just want people to know that
, like, if you're afraid of what
your friends are going to say,
for like things that literally
don't harm anyone else. Because
that's one of the things that
really got me when I was being
harassed, right, when all my
friends were dropping like flies
, whenever I was finding out
that people I've never talked to
were talking about me, that I
didn't even know they knew me
was like I didn't hurt anyone,
right, i've never hurt it. Well,
in this context, i'm not saying
I've never hurt anyone, i'm a
person. I'm a person I've hurt
people, right, right, but, like,
in that situation, i was not
being harassed and ostracized
because I hurt anyone.
Sgt Spank: No, you were being
harassed and ostracized of a
cartoon and you should never
have to be afraid that your
friends are going to hate you
for liking your cartoons a
certain way and doing certain
things with your cartoons and
your family. You should never be
afraid of that. You should
never be afraid of losing
somebody over that. And people
shouldn't be police and queer
people and how they enjoy
fictional cartoon media period,
because we've been demonized for
that shit for long enough, for
just having queer experiences
for long enough. it's time to
stop that shit.
Jackie: I need to wrap it up now
. Is there any last points you
want to make before we wrap?
Sgt Spank: up. My last point is
I guess basically what I want to
say is if something makes you
happy and you want to create
that thing, do not worry about
what other people think about
you creating that thing. Create
it because, at the end of the
day, those people do not fucking
matter. At the end of the day,
you have yourself and what makes
you happy is more fucking
important. Like, you are not
anybody's therapist, okay, you
are not a fucking babysitter.
You are not getting paid to care
about these random ass internet
people. If you want to create
something because it makes you
happy and you are not hurting
anybody, create it. Do not stop,
do not get discouraged. You are
not alone in feeling these
feelings and being afraid. I
have experienced quite a bit of
fear and it has definitely
fucked with my brain quite a bit
to think about how I've
affected other people. At the
end of the fucking day, these
are other people, most of them
strangers are going to have a
problem with you and fuck them.
It doesn't matter. At the end of
the day, care about you, care
about what you like, and you
will find people that care about
you. Despite whatever fucking
shit you like, people are going
to care about you, no matter
what. You just have to find the
right circles and the right
friends. If these people are
making you afraid, then you
should not be in contact with
them. Just love yourself,
because it took me a while to
start loving myself again and to
give myself a platform to
create again, because I felt so
fucking guilty. So don't feel
guilty.
Jackie: That's great. I don't
think I have anything to add on
to that, because that's like the
whole fucking point right? Yeah
, it really is Cool. In that
case, is there anything you want
to plug?
Sgt Spank: Yeah, you can find my
merchandise I have. My body
pillow is up for $44 now I've
cut the price considerably On
Etsy I'm a Corvids horde On Etsy
. On Twitter, my not-safer work
is Sergeant Spunk. Just one full
word no dash. My safer work,
twitter is Sergeant Spank. I'm
Sergeant Spank on everything,
mostly, for the most part, and
you can find me pretty much
anywhere. Just search Sergeant
Spank on Google, you'll be fine,
trust me. Trust me.
Jackie: Yeah, okay, in that case
, thank you very much for coming
on. I am certain I'm going to
have you on again for one thing
or another.
Sgt Spank: I'm so excited. I
appreciate you having me. in
general, this was a lot of fun.
It was great to get to talk to
somebody about this stuff.
Jackie: It's been a long time
coming and coming And it's not
going to stop here. In fact, i
just might take things we talked
about and turn individual parts
into one whole episode, and
this is just our kind of
overview.
Sgt Spank: Introductory Yeah,
yeah, overview Sounds great to
me. Okay, awesome, i would love
to be back.
Jackie: Yes, in that case I will
see you all in however long.
The next episode? a week, two
weeks a time. I'll see you guys
at a time. Goodbye, bye.
![Fandom Bitchfest: Homestuck Edition with Sgt Spank](https://img.transistor.fm/tyPOevOePMZHhOd4jRQvj-BRBQ9aER6kK-go_fdTC5I/rs:fill:800:800:1/q:60/aHR0cHM6Ly9pbWct/dXBsb2FkLXByb2R1/Y3Rpb24udHJhbnNp/c3Rvci5mbS9lcGlz/b2RlLzE1MDYyMDQv/MTY5NDgxMjg0MC1h/cnR3b3JrLmpwZw.webp)